'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc

TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

MOSLEY: This month marks 50 years of hip-hop. To celebrate, all this week we'll be featuring interviews with some of the most influential rappers and DJs over the last 50 years. We'll start at the beginning with DJ Kool Herc, who, on August 11, 1973, DJ'd an end-of-summer party in his Bronx apartment's rec center. Little did he know that it was the beginning of hip-hop as we know it. Kool Herc was the first DJ to isolate and repeat the breaks - the most danceable beats in a record - to rev the party and keep the dancers going. Although Herc is often credited as the father of hip-hop, he didn't record and, for years, remained relatively unknown.

Grandmaster Flash took Herc's method one step further, developing mixing and scratching techniques that became part of the basics of hip-hop. We'll hear Terry's interview with him later in the show. His group, Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, was the first hip-hop group inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. Melle Mel was a member and rapped on "The Message," which is considered one of the best rap records ever made. We'll hear from him also. But let's kick it off with DJ Kool Herc. He spoke to Terry in 2005 about the parties he threw in the Bronx back in the '70s. They started with a mix that Kool Herc would often play at parties.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

UNIDENTIFIED MUSICAL ARTIST: (Singing) Oh, I wouldn't change a thing if I had to live my life all over. Oh, baby.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

TERRY GROSS: Kool Herc, welcome to FRESH AIR. Take us back to the beginning of hip-hop. Would you describe what you would do at parties?

DJ KOOL HERC: OK. The party would start out like this. I ride my bicycle - summertime - all over the Bronx everywhere. And people would - as I go along, they would ask me, hey, Herc. The last party was - it was the bomb. It was the joint. You know, that was just - that's when the first slang thing started. It was the joint. I love it. When is the next one? Until that build up, when is the next one, that's when we give the party. And we give the party - three weeks prior to the date, we start to put out invitations about it on index card.

GROSS: Tell us what it was like at the party - like, how you would play records, how you would find the breaks, how you started finding the breaks.

DJ KOOL HERC: I would - well, I thought people didn't see me. I was in a room. I had to stick my head out and see how the party was going. Me and my friends was in the room, and I would - we would stick our head out and see how the party's doing, or we'd call people names out. And I didn't have the luxury of headphones. I had to queue in the record over the music 'cause that's the way my setup was set up. And I was - you know, the record - you could tell where the breaks are. It's a dark groove. And people used to wait some time for those particular parts of the record to come on. And I would just play stuff, you know, and I would tell them that I have new records. I wanted them to check it out at the same time I'm checking it out. And if it's something I personally like, I would tell them, I'm feeling this one, and I hope you like the rest I play, you know, 'cause they came to my house. You know, they were my guests.

GROSS: Now, what made you think that it would be great at parties to just play those breaks over and over to make almost, like, a loop of those breaks instead of just playing...

DJ KOOL HERC: Because...

GROSS: ...The whole record straight through?

DJ KOOL HERC: That's the one misconception of me. I'm a disc jockey. I'm not a DJ. I'm a disc jockey. I play the disc to make you jockey. And one night, I experiment. The breaks came out of an experiment by - I'm watching the people dancing, and a lot of people used to wait for some particular part of the records. I'm studying the floor. I'm like a shepherd. I'm watching the flock. You know, I got to maintain this crowd going on till around 4 o'clock. So I'm - I have to - I'm very observant. So what - I was noticing people used to wait for them particular parts of the record to dance to just to do their special little move. So I said, listen. I'm going to do a thing. I'm going to call it the merry-go-round. So I put all these breaks that I know that I have in my collection together. Some of them have two, but most of them only had one, so then I thought to keep it going. I called it the merry-go-round. And at the time, I had a record called "Apache," and it was off an album called "The Incredible Bongo Rock." And that record set the tone.

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is Kool Herc, and he's basically considered the father of hip-hop, of...

DJ KOOL HERC: No, not basically. I am.

GROSS: OK (laughter). And Kool...

DJ KOOL HERC: The buck stop right here. Ain't nobody after George Washington. Likewise, same thing for Kool Herc.

GROSS: What were the records that you thought had the best breaks when you were doing parties in the '70s?

DJ KOOL HERC: James Brown, "Give It Up Turn It Loose" (ph) - a lot of James Brown record - "Get Involved." Bobby Byrd record, "Hot Pants," you know, and Dennis Coffey, you know, "Scorpio," soundtracks from "Shaft In Africa," you know, and the list goes on and on. I'm still buying records to this day.

GROSS: What are you buying?

DJ KOOL HERC: Good stuff that's not played on the radio.

GROSS: Would you describe one of the best parties that you can remember from the early days of hip-hop?

DJ KOOL HERC: But all of them was good - all of them. But I couldn't - I just could remember sometime I play some particular record that we were - I remember that when we first heard a record called "Seven Minutes Of Funk," we heard it in a place called - at Hunts Point. And Jay-Z used it, and a few other people used that same record. And that came out of my collection. And when we played our record - what we did - Coke did - Coke put the record on, and we all walked off the stage. And the record just came on. (Vocalizing). And it kept on going. And it just kept on going through changes. And everybody was like, whoa. You know, even when we played "Heatwave," the slow record, you know, everybody was shocked 'cause we - you know, we played a lot of records that the radio wasn't playing till we found out the radio stations started sending spies to the clubs to hear what we're playing. Then suddenly, a lot of the records now started to get played on the radio.

GROSS: You know, back in the '70s, when you were doing parties, you'd charge for admission, right?

DJ KOOL HERC: Twenty-five cents for fellas - for ladies and 50 cents for fellas. After that, it was 75 for fellas, 50 cents for ladies. We was charging according to what the Juicy Fruit gum was selling for.

GROSS: (Laughter).

DJ KOOL HERC: We'd budget ourselves according to - we weren't trying to get rich, you know? Every soda was 50 cents. We got to charge 25 cents for ladies. I mean, the gum was 20 - if the gum was a dime, a nickel, we got to charge - you know, like that. We wasn't trying to get rich.

GROSS: So how many people would show up to the typical party?

DJ KOOL HERC: Well, I'll tell you one thing. We went upstairs. We put it out on the table. We made $500 selling franks and all that. Three to $400 we was clocking.

GROSS: So...

DJ KOOL HERC: And it was a little recreation room.

GROSS: Did you have to pay to rent the room?

DJ KOOL HERC: Yes, twenty-five dollars.

GROSS: Oh, that's not bad.

DJ KOOL HERC: No. You know, it was just - you know, it was fun. And at the time, people couldn't - people didn't want nobody in their house. Mom's still paying for the furniture. People is not going to be too careful in your house. You don't want people all up in your business. So the recreation was perfect. You couldn't tear nothing up in there. We had two bathrooms. We had a kitchen, and we had space to dance.

GROSS: So a lot of the apartment buildings had recreation rooms.

DJ KOOL HERC: Yeah, a few of them, at least the new one. We lived in a new building at the time 'cause we had - we was burnt out from where we lived at on the east side. And we stayed in the Grand Concourse Hotel for a minute. And my moms held out and held out till something came along. And it was the first building on Cedric Avenue right by the Major Deegan Highway. They said, Mrs. Campbell, we think we have something you're looking for. And sure enough, we found it - two bathrooms and enough room for all of us. It was the Brady - we were "The Brady Bunch" family - three boys and three girls.

GROSS: (Laughter).

DJ KOOL HERC: And we lived on the first floor.

GROSS: You moved to New York in 1967 from Jamaica at the age...

DJ KOOL HERC: Yeah.

GROSS: ...Of 13. What was your first reaction to New York? You moved to - what? - to the South Bronx.

DJ KOOL HERC: No, I move on the West Bronx on Tremont Avenue, 178th Street - 611 East 178th Street.

GROSS: OK, so...

DJ KOOL HERC: And...

GROSS: What was your first reaction to it? And how did it compare to the neighborhood you were used to in Jamaica?

DJ KOOL HERC: Well, I was, at the time, watching TV down there - "Petticoat Junction" and "Dennis The Menace." And I just thought the United - all the United States was, like, good old Mr. Wilson "Dennis The Menace" neighborhood.

GROSS: (Laughter).

DJ KOOL HERC: I was in for a rude awakening when I got here. I went from - I was living in Jamaica originally in Jones Town, you know, Trench Town over there on Second Street there. Bob Marley lived on First. I lived on Second Street nearby a little school nearby - I attended school nearby a movie theater called the Ambassador Theater. And when I moved to Franklin Town and got more into seeing the disco develop, I was - I didn't live in a ghetto part of Jamaica - Franklin Town, you know? It was, like, a little suburbia, but it was - probably there's something about me ghetto. But when I got here, it was - like, it was no different. I was like, whoa. I'm living upstairs, and it's over other people, people living over me. I lived in a yard in Jamaica. I had a yard. I didn't live in a tenement, you know? And I see dirt. I didn't see concrete all the time, you know? And snow - I'd never seen snow before, you know? And it was like a - it was a wake-up call. It wasn't the good old Mr. Wilson neighborhood.

GROSS: (Laughter) What surprised you most about what the styles were when you got to New York? You know, were the clothes different? Were...

DJ KOOL HERC: Yeah.

GROSS: Yeah.

DJ KOOL HERC: I wasn't - I didn't have the hip clothes that day. I had on the hick clothes. I had on a aviator hat that you pull over your ears and then flip up top. I had the white corduroy jacket on. I looked straight like a hick. And then I had on - I love cowboy boots from back in Jamaica and watching cowboy pictures, so I thought that, you know, cowboy boots was - you know, was the bomb. When I got here and got a pair of cowboy winter boots, this girl in high school - junior high school was teasing me to death. Hey. Look at him. He got on roach killers, roach killers. And she had a whole hallway just tearing me up - roach killers, roach killers and all that.

Do you know I seen her one time years later? I said, remember me? She says, yeah. I remember you. I used to tease you about them - wearing them cowboy boots. And I said, look around the place right now. What do you see? She said, oh, my God. I said, yeah, I guess I was ahead of my time then, right? Show you right. It was - cowboy style was in the - cowboy style was in when Teddy Pendergrass made that record and had on the cowboy hat and all that.

GROSS: So - but they called your cowboy boots roach killers.

DJ KOOL HERC: Yes. It has the pointy toe. They called them - any pointed-toe shoes like that, it was called roach killers. OK? You could get in a corner and kill a roach with it.

GROSS: (Laughter) So have you ever done a radio show?

DJ KOOL HERC: No.

GROSS: Do you think that's...

DJ KOOL HERC: I've been on a radio show.

GROSS: ...Something you'd want to do sometime - you know, like, to DJ on the radio?

DJ KOOL HERC: I would love it, but I'd have to have free reign to play what I'll play. And I don't - you don't get that at radio stations, so I don't really bother with that.

GROSS: Right.

DJ KOOL HERC: You can't tell me what to play in New York City when this culture was born here.

GROSS: Well, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.

DJ KOOL HERC: You're welcome.

MOSLEY: DJ Kool Herc, the first hip-hop DJ, spoke to Terry in 2005. He was inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame this past May. Let's listen to a record that Herc would play a lot when he DJed with singer Jill Scott.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "BROTHA")

JILL SCOTT: (Singing) Brother, (vocalizing), brotha, (vocalizing), so many times you tried to cut we. You want to tear we down, but you can't touch we. We ain't invincible. Lord knows we are beautiful and blessed. Check the affirmative. Oh, yes, brother, don't let nobody hold you back. No, no, no. Don't let nobody hold you, control you or mold you. Brother...

MOSLEY: Coming up, we'll hear what Grandmaster Flash did to take DJing to the next level with turntable techniques like scratching, needle drops and his quick mix theory. We'll be back after a quick break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF INCREDIBLE BONGO BAND'S "APACHE")TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "IT'S NASTY (GENIUS OF LOVE)")

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: Ladies and gentlemen, it's now the time for the Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five MCs. (Rapping) We're coming. We're coming. We're coming. We're coming. We're coming. We're coming. We're coming. We're coming. We're coming. We're here. Oh.

MOSLEY: While DJ Kool Herc is often credited as the father of hip-hop, Grandmaster Flash was one of the first DJs to make successful rap records and become a pioneer in the genre. In the '70s, he developed mixing and scratching techniques that became part of the basics of hip-hop. He spoke to Terry Gross in 2002.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

TERRY GROSS: Grandmaster Flash, welcome to FRESH AIR.

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Thank you for having me.

GROSS: I'm interested in how you started mixing music, how you started using two turntables or maybe even more than two. Was this something you started doing at home or in clubs as a DJ?

GRANDMASTER FLASH: My love for vinyl and for the turntables probably started off when I was a toddler, you know? Growing up at home, I was pretty fortunate to be around a montage of different types of music. Like, my sisters, my bigger sisters, were into, like, Tito Puente, Joe Bataan. Like, my father was into, like, Dizzy Gillespie, Miles Davis, Cab Calloway. My mother was, like, into Ella Fitzgerald, Lena Horne and stuff of that nature. So - and I had a sister that was, like, into the Michael Jackson sound. So I was pretty fortunate to grow up listening to quite a bit of vinyl. And I probably - my love for it probably came about when I was old enough to sort of start looking into turntables and stuff of that nature.

And that's probably, you know, although it was a negative experience - and when I say negative, meaning, like, I used to just sort of take apart electrical items in my mother's house, including turntables, just to figure out how they work and why they work. And my intention was to put it back together properly, but I just could not do it. But I just had this thing where I just had to know how the inside of a turntable worked, how the inside of a radio worked and how my father's stereo. And that's probably where it really started, just like had this undying interest of...

GROSS: Well, you basically started using turntables as if they were instruments. What...

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Yeah.

GROSS: How did you start using turntables to change the music that you were listening to as opposed to just playing the music?

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Well, I think, coming up, I watched a lot of DJs in my early teens. And watching the DJs of that particular time, they were playing the music, like, my influences. Although they were great, positive influences - I'm talking about DJ Kool Herc and Pete DJ Jones. These two DJs inspired me to do what I did. And they would play the music. And I just sort of felt like, I can take the most exciting part of a record, which we call the break, and sort of extend that, because a lot of these songs that I was listening to were, like, obscure funk tunes where the break section was, like, maybe 10 seconds long.

And from a frustrated point of view, I had this thought that if I can just come up with a system, a way of just taking duplicate copies of the record with two turntables and a mixer, I can extend that five- or 10-second part seamlessly and make it 10 minutes if I wanted to. And that's, you know, my thoughts manifested into creating an art form called the quick-mix theory, which is actually taking a passage of music or two duplicate copies of vinyl and sort of moving the disc back and forth and repeating a section of the passage, you know, between duplicate copies of the record. That's where it started.

GROSS: So you'd let, like, the 10 seconds play on one record and then switch to the other turntable, and meanwhile back up the first turntable to the beginning of that part of the record?

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Exactly. That was called the clock theory. Yeah.

GROSS: Because you were putting the needle down on exactly the right part of the record with the rhythm that you wanted to hear, could you actually - you know, some people say that you were able to look at the grooves of a vinyl record and know exactly where the rhythm was that you wanted, that you could actually see it in the grooves.

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Well, actually, you know, I was pretty decent at it. But it was my first student that I taught this quick-mix theory to, Grandwizzard Theodore, was probably the best at that. And it was called needle drops. But what I came up with is what I call the clock theory. And the clock theory was where you would place the needles down on both copies of the vinyl. And when the ending of one was over, you would push in the next fader. But while the other one was playing, you would sort of spin the record back one or two revolutions to the top of that break. And then when the other one was over, you would push in the other. So it was like push, spin back, push, spin back.

So I actually never - you know, this made it an assured way of being able to get back to the beginning of the break section without actually having to pull the needle up. And what I would do is I would mark, like, on the label. If it was, like, a record from - if it was a 12-inch from Atlantic Records, and if the break began, let's just say, at the top of the A, I would sort of put, like, a magic marker right there. So that would be my clock of where I had to bring the record back, one or two revolutions back, to re-arrive at the top of the break. And I would just sort of do this with two copies of records back and forth, back and forth.

So picking up the needle, you know, was no longer an issue, because that wasn't definite because once you picked it up - you know, I could always get close to it, but it was never really, like, exact. And creating the clock theory, which all DJs use today now, where they mark the album at a certain point, is one of my contributions to the art of the DJ mix.

MOSLEY: We'll hear more of Terry's 2005 interview with Grandmaster Flash after a break and also an interview with Melle Mel, who rapped on the hits "The Message" and "White Lines." I'm Tonya Mosley, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "FREEDOM")

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Rapping) Yeah. Young ladies in the place, feel the highs. Feel the bass. If you want to rock till the break of dawn, somebody say, come on. Come on. Melle Mel, right on time - Taurus the bull is my Zodiac sign. And I'm Mr. Ness, and I'm ready to go.

MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. This week we're celebrating hip-hop's 50th anniversary by listening back to interviews with some of the most influential rappers and DJs over the past five decades. Let's get back to the 2002 interview Terry Gross recorded with one of hip-hop's pioneers, Grandmaster Flash.

GROSS: Why don't we listen to one of your now-classic recordings? And this is "The Adventures Of Grandmaster Flash On The Wheels Of Steel."

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL")

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Rapping) You say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, one for the treble, two for the time. Come on, girls. Let's rock that. Fab Five Freddie told me everybody's fly. DJs spinning are saving my mind. Flash is fast. Flash is fast. Flash is fast. Flash is cool. Francois sez fas, Flashe' no do. You say one for the trouble, two for the time. Come on, girls. Let's rock that (singing) good times.

GROSS: That's Grandmaster Flash from the early '80s, one of his classic recordings, "The Adventures Of Grandmaster Flash On The Wheels Of Steel." You know what I'd like to do? I'd like to hear that again. But this time, keep your microphone on and have you describe what you're doing as we listen to it. Here we go.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL")

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Rapping) You say, you say...

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Punch phrase.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL")

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Rapping) You say, you say, you say...

GRANDMASTER FLASH: This is Spoonie Gee, "Monster Jam."

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL")

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Rapping) One for the trouble, two for the time...

GRANDMASTER FLASH: I let it go there.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL")

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Rapping) Come on, girls. Let's rock that. Fab Five Freddie told me everybody's fly...

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Into Blondie here.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL")

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Rapping) DJs spinning are saving my mind. Flash is fast...

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Punch phrase.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL")

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Rapping) Flash is fast...

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Punch phrase.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL")

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Rapping) Flash is fast. Flash is cool. Francois sez fas, Flashe' no do. You say one for the trouble.

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Back to Spoonie again.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL")

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Rapping) Two for the time. Come on, girls. Let's rock that (singing) good times.

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Into "Good Times," Chic.

(SOUNDBITE OF GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE SONG, "THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL")

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Into "Apache" on the rub.

(SOUNDBITE OF GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE SONG, "THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL")

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Cutting it up. Cutting it up. Back in again. Punch phrase, Queen, "Another One Bites The Dust." In.

(SOUNDBITE OF GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE SONG, "THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL")

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Cutting it to rhythm. (Vocalizing). I'm using "Good Times" to rub the rhythm against Queen.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL")

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Singing) Good times.

GRANDMASTER FLASH: "Good Times" by Chic.

GROSS: Now, that release is so nice, the way it synchronizes there.

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Thank you. Thank you. That's the whole key to it, you know? That's what my contribution is. Keeping it on time, that was, like, the key.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL")

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Rapping) Grandmaster, cut faster.

GRANDMASTER FLASH: I punch phrase from "Freedom."

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL")

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Rapping) Cut faster. Grandmaster, cut, cut, cut faster.

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Cutting it up.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL")

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Rapping) Grandmaster. Grandmaster, cut faster.

GRANDMASTER FLASH: I punch phrase in "Good Times."

(SOUNDBITE OF GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE SONG, "THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL")

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Back to "Good Times."

GROSS: That's Grandmaster Flash walking us through his recording "The Adventures Of Grandmaster Flash On The Wheels Of Steel," recorded in 1981. You know, the way "Good Times" and Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust," the way the rhythm of the two work together is really good. What made you think about putting those two together?

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Well, probably - I mean, first, they were two pretty big songs at that particular time, and they're almost in the same key. They're almost identical in the way that the bass was being played. And they worked really well in the club back in the days. So I felt, you know, putting it in the mix was, like, a real good idea, you know?

GROSS: Now, was scratching something that you invented? Or was that invented by one of the people who influenced you?

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Well, actually, it was called cutting. And the whole thing was, like I said earlier in the interview, is called the quick-mix theory. And we called it cutting because it was actually taking a section of the rhythm and rearranging it. And this is something that I've created over 27 years ago. It's now called scratching, which is sort of just, like, one part. It's almost like, you know, saying to a boxer, he's boxing, but now we're going to call it right hook, you know? The right hook is only one area of a boxer's skill. And, like, the scratching is just one area of what this thing, you know, entails, you know, when you look at it.

GROSS: Scratching, just for any of our listeners who don't know what scratching is, is when you're moving the record back and forth with the needle on it. And the sound of the needle scratching the record creates part of the rhythm track that you're going for.

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Right, a percussive sort of sound. Right.

GROSS: Yeah. Yeah.

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Exactly.

GROSS: So did you practice that a lot at home so you could just, like, really play these turntables as instruments and do exactly what you wanted on them?

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Yeah, I sort of - I was looking for something because at this time, what I wanted to come up with, this science, there was no point of reference, no blueprints around. So I was constantly at it, yes. But I was looking for something. And as I was looking for something, you know, I would run into obstacles. And that's when, you know, I had to start considering coming up with different techniques with just, like, torque versus inertia for turntables, you know?

Because a lot of the turntables - like, you can buy a turntable now that's suited for whatever you want. You want it to do this? You can buy a turntable for that or a mixer or a needle. But at this particular time in the '70s, this stuff didn't exist. So I had to, like, actually come up with science and terms and terminologies, you know? And with turntables, I came up with this thing called the torque factor. And the torque factor is based on - from the state of inertia and you press that power switch, if that platter takes more than a turn to be up to speed, then the torque of that motor wasn't very good, you know? So in my search, you know, I went through countless amount of turntables.

So I actually create the electrical items first before even coming up with the quick-mix theory. And then I had to go look at needles. And then I learned that needles, you know, were in two classifications, which is, one is the elliptical and the other is the conical, you know? And conical, although it doesn't sound as good, it stood in the grooves better because it was shaped like a nail, versus, like, an elliptical stylus that was built like a backwards J. But as soon as you would bring the disc back, it would fall out of the groove. So you know, all these things had to come into play before I even was able to even start doing any cutting, scratching or whatever the case may be.

GROSS: You must have been pretty obsessive at that time, taking apart turntables and shopping for just the right needle and, you know, designing all these variations on the technology that you were using so it could do what you needed it to do. You must have really been intense.

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Well, I probably was more frustrated than anything because, I mean, so much stuff I had to buy. Like, a lot of it was trial and error, you know, trying to get my hands on the right needle. You know, I had to go through countless needles. You know, in trying to find the right turntable, I had to go through countless turntables. And then finding the right mixer - but then it didn't have a system where I can pre-hear the music in my head. So I had to create something called the Peek-A-Boo system. So I had to, like, actually jerry-rig these things, you know?

And my frustration kept me more - it fueled the fire to me just staying at this and staying at this and, you know, throwing away my teenage years, you know, where - you know, your teenage years is when, you know, you're feeling your oats. And you want to go hang out with the girls, and you want to go to the parties and stuff. I think I probably lived either, like, in the junkyards, going through, like, abandoned stereo equipment or, you know, going through abandoned cars and taking out the speakers and the radios and stuff of that nature. I probably was - lived in my room more, so - you know, just looking for something, you know...

GROSS: Did you have the money...

GRANDMASTER FLASH: ...In my frustration.

GROSS: Did you have the money to buy a lot of stereo equipment?

GRANDMASTER FLASH: No. That's why I had to go into backyards and look for stuff and sort of, like, go through abandoned cars or ask people, you know, that might have been throwing away stuff just - you know, just so that I can just basically have these things. But at this point in time, I still didn't know what these internal parts was. So while I was tearing up all the stuff inside my mother's house and became, like, public enemy No. 1 with my sisters and stuff, my mother decided to send me to school.

GROSS: What kind of school?

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Samuel Gompers Vocational and Technical High School. And that's where I started to understand, like, what is a resistor, what is a capacitor, what is AC versus DC, what is a transformer, what's a push-pull circuit, what's a diode rectifier, what's transistorized versus tubes and what's an O meter and what's an oscilloscope and what's a wave. And, you know, I started, like, actually understanding as I was, you know, not - so now, when I tore into something, I sort of had somewhat of an idea of what it is and what it did. So all these things helped me to jerry-rig and put together, you know, this Peek-A-Boo system to a mixer that didn't have it and to figure out, you know, how turntables work and how that works. So it kind of helped me to put together the system so that I can start on getting this concept out of my head that just kept - you know, it just kept staying in my head, so to speak.

GROSS: Let's get back to your new CD, the Grandmaster Flash "Essential Mix: Classic Edition." One of the things on here is Blondie's "Rapture," and that's one of the songs that you sample in "The Adventures Of Grandmaster Flash On The Wheels Of Steel" 'cause she mentions you in the song.

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Yes.

GROSS: How did you find out about each other? Do you know?

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Well, actually, how it happened was when I was - maybe 10 years before I recorded - making records, there was a gentleman by the name of Fab 5 Freddy who used to come to my parties. But he also had this incredible connection with, like, the whites and different races of people downtown in the village. So back in the days, he was, like, hanging downtown in the village, but he would come up to the Bronx and party with Flash, Herc and Bam. And he was sort of like our town crier, also. He would go downtown and say, listen. There's - this guy's uptown, you guys. You know, there's this guy named Flash. You got to come - you know, come check him, you know? And he would say to me, I'm going to bring one of my good friends up, Deborah Harry. And everybody at that time knew who - knew that name. And I was basically on some, yeah, right, whatever.

And then surprisingly enough, a couple of weeks later, he brought this woman to my party. And she watched me play, and she was extremely happy with the way that I played and said that she was going to write a song about me. I took it as a grain of salt, didn't really believe it until maybe two or three months later. And she did it. And she opened up so many doors for hip-hop by doing that.

GROSS: Well, why don't we close with "Rapture," which is on your new mix CD? And, Grandmaster Flash, thanks so much for talking with us.

GRANDMASTER FLASH: My pleasure.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "RAPTURE")

BLONDIE: (Singing) Back to back, sacroiliac, spineless movement and a wild attack. Face to face sightless solitude, and it's finger-popping, twenty-four hour shopping in rapture. (Rapping) Fab 5 Freddy told me everybody's fly. DJ spinning - I said, my, my. Flash is back. Flash is back. Flash is back.

MOSLEY: Grandmaster Flash spoke to Terry Gross in 2002. After a break, we'll continue our celebration of hip-hop's early pioneers with Melle Mel, who rapped on the hip-hop classics "The Message" and "White Lines." This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF THE INTERNET SONG, "ROLL (BURBANK FUNK)"

TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE SONG, "THE MESSAGE")

MOSLEY: "The Message" by Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five is considered one of the most influential rap records and is one of the first that offered social commentary on inner-city poverty. The song was written by producer Duke Bootee, but Melle Mel rapping made it a hit.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THE MESSAGE")

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Rapping) It's like a jungle sometimes. It makes me wonder how I keep from going under. It's like a jungle sometimes. It makes me wonder how I keep from going under. Broken glass everywhere, people pissing on the stairs - you know they just don't care. I can't take the smell, can't take the noise, got no money to move out. I guess I got no choice. Rats in the front room, roaches in the back, junkies in the alley with a baseball bat - I tried to get away, but I couldn't get far 'cause a man with a tow truck repossessed my car. Don't push me 'cause I'm close to the edge. I'm trying not to lose my head. (Vocalizing). It's like a jungle sometimes. It makes me wonder how I keep from going under. Standing on the front stoop…

MOSLEY: When Melle Mel recorded that rap, it was a departure from typical rap records. And he wasn't that enthusiastic about recording it.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

MELLE MEL: Our group, like, Flash and the Furious Five - we didn't actually want to do "The Message" because we was used to doing party raps, you know, and, like, boasting about how good we are and all that. And when the record company brought the record to us to do, we didn't actually want to do it. And I was the only one that, like - I just caved in. I said, listen. If this is the record we're going to do, then I'll just do it. And it's no big thing. But I didn't think that it would be - I didn't think that it would be pivotal either way, you know, like on a good or bad end. I just thought it was going to be just another record that we had did.

TERRY GROSS: So did you ever try "The Message" at parties before you went into the recording studio, or would that have been all wrong?

MEL: No, we never tried it. And as a matter of fact, I was shocked, because we used to hang out in a club called Disco Fever up in the Bronx, right? And then they took the record, you know, they was testing it. Like, they tested it down on a record shop on 125th Street, you know, just putting it - you know, just letting it play and people outside, you know, listening to it. And then they tested it in the club where we hung out at, and the people really liked it.

And that was coming right behind "Planet Rock," which was a big, big record back then. And when they played "The Message" in the club and the people liked it, I was kind of shocked because I didn't think that, you know, coming from "Planet Rock" to, you know, a serious record like "The Message," I didn't think that - I thought it would be like a lapse in, you know, the level of the crowd, the intensity of the crowd, but it wasn't. So yeah, right then I knew that the record was going to be more than what I thought it was going to be.

GROSS: Can I ask you how you started rapping?

MEL: Well, we started going to parties. There used to be, like, little, like, maybe a dollar party, $2 parties. And they had a DJ called Kool Herc. Well, it was all DJs, but they rapped. They didn't actually rap in rhythm, but they used to say little phrases. You know, Coke La Rock, Timmy Tim and Clark Kent, that was the guys' names. And they was the big DJs. They was, like, the big DJs back then, and we used to go to their parties. And I just started rapping just trying to emulate them, you know, to be like them, because they was, like, more or less, our heroes back then.

GROSS: What were some of the kinds of rhymes they were using?

MEL: They wouldn't use rhymes. It was like - if you could imagine, it would be, like, a dark room or a gym. And it's, like, smoky because everybody was smoking everything from cigarettes to whatever, you know. And they'd be playing the music. And then it'd all be echo chamber, so they'd be like, rock, rock, rock, rock, freak, freak, freak, you know? It just...

GROSS: Right.

MEL: It was like - more or less like kind of psychedelic kind of thing because everything they said, it was echoes, you know? And this is why they call me the show machine shock, y'all, y'all, y'all, y'all, you know? It was, like, all this echoing. And you walk in there, you'd be, like, dumbfounded because it's like you just stepped into another world, you know what I mean? And there's all these dark figures around and smoke and, you know, it was, like, awesome. You know, for us, it was like a rush, you know, just stepping into these parties.

GROSS: So what were the early rhymes you were doing?

MEL: We was doing like, you know, (rapping) I'm Melle Mel, and I rock so well from the top of the world to the depths of hell. This is my first rhyme. I rock with the best with the most finesse. I'm taking the top and leaving what's left.

Like, real simple stuff, you know, just boasting rhymes, you know, nothing real heavy or nothing like that or nothing real technical because there was no technique. We was just going by our own thing.

GROSS: How did you come up with your name, Melle Mel?

MEL: Flash gave me that name because that was - my name was just Melvin, so I don't think that would be, like, a cool name...

GROSS: Right (laughter).

MEL: ...Like, you know, MC Melvin.

(LAUGHTER)

MEL: So Flash - you know, he started calling me Melle Mel, and it stuck.

GROSS: Where were the parties held?

MEL: In gyms, and not too many halls. We did, basically, the first halls. But it was, like, in gyms and, like, little social club-type things. I think Herc - the Hevalo, that was, I guess, was a club. I never was there. But he used to play in the PAL, and that was, like, a gym. You know, little halls, you know, nothing big or extravagant. But it was, like, you know, nice, little, small, dark joints, you know, real comfortable, sweaty, you know.

GROSS: (Laughter) Was there often trouble at the parties?

MEL: Yeah, but, like, the trouble at the parties was like - it was set up like, it was nothing going on in the party itself, right? But all the guys that, like, did stick-ups and stuff like that, they'd be in the bathroom. So when you went to the bathroom, if you didn't know these guys, then they'd rob you. So that - it wasn't like how it is now, like, guys would actually be in the party itself and shoot up the party. Or maybe they'd come outside and shoot up the party. If you got shot, you might get shot in the bathroom, you know? That was, like, the only spot that you'd have to be wary of, basically. And then you did have your isolated instances, you know, something happening outside. But it would never happen in the party, so to speak. It'd always be, like, away from the party.

GROSS: So would you go to the bathroom? Did you know enough people that it was safe for you to go (laughter)?

MEL: Oh, no, I knew everybody. I knew everybody, so it was definitely safe. I knew, you know, because before I was rapping, I used to be a dancer. So you know, I just met, like, all of the stick-up guys, all the dope-dealing guys. I knew them all. Or if I didn't know them, I was familiar with them. So you know, if it's a familiar face, they might let you come and go, you know? And I wasn't no sharp dresser. I didn't have no jewelry or nothing like that or no clean sneakers or, you know, something that, you know, they would want to take. So you know, I was always safe.

MOSLEY: That's rapper Melle Mel speaking with Terry in 1992. And we should note that he was arrested in June and charged with felony domestic violence. He denies wrongdoing, and a trial is pending. More on the conversation with Melle Mel after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF JAY-Z AND BEYONCE SONG, "'03 BONNIE AND CLYDE")

MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1992 interview with rapper Melle Mel.

GROSS: Another great record that you made was "White Lines," which is a kind of anti-cocaine record.

MEL: Right.

GROSS: You know, "White Lines (Don't Do It)."

MEL: Right.

GROSS: So here you were actually doing drugs while you were making the rap.

MEL: Right. And now, see - the whole thing with "White Lines" is I didn't want to try to make an anti-cocaine song or a song that glorified cocaine. I just wanted to make a song about cocaine. And that was a hit song because the music that we used - it wasn't original music. We used it - you know, it was, like, a club song, Liquid Liquid. That was the name of the song. And, you know, I used to be in the club. And it's like, if you ever hear a song and sing your own words to it, in other words. And they were saying something in their record, and every time I would hear it, I would just say (singing) white lines, you know? And I was like, you know, it could be a good idea to make a song.

And that was all a part of the scene anyway, you know, the club scene back then. It was like - cocaine then - it wasn't like how it is now. It was more fashionable. You know what I mean? It was fashionable to have it. And I started out not even - you know, I didn't use cocaine. I should just have it because it was fashionable just to have it. You come in a club. You know, everybody know you got blow. Girls know you got coke. And, you know, it's just - you just - it was in the euphoria of that, just having it. And people that know you have it, and they treat you better. And that's - all that accumulated to me writing in that song, you know, because that's the lifestyle that I was in. I wasn't around nobody that didn't use drugs. And, you know, that was the lifestyle I was in. So the song was - for that time, it was like the perfect song to write. For that music and that time, it was the perfect song.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "WHITE LINES (DON'T DO IT)")

MEL: (Rapping) Ticket to ride, white line highway. Tell all your friends they can go my way. Pay your toll. Sell your soul. Pound for pound cost more than gold. The longer you stay, the more you pay. My white lines go a long way. Either up your nose or through your vein with nothing to gain except killing your brain. Freeze. Rock. Freeze. Rock. Freeze. Rock. Freeze. Rock. Blow. Higher, baby. Get higher, baby. Get higher, baby. And don't ever come down. Freebase.

GROSS: How did you come up with the idea of using the higher, higher?

MEL: That was just something that came naturally with the song, with the twist and shout thing. It just came naturally. That was like, you know, me piecing it together in my mind after the verse. And it's, ah, higher, baby. Ah, higher, you know? And it just all - it all fell together. It was something real natural. As a matter of fact, before I even did the song, I even had a dream that after - that I did the song, and I heard it, and I was in the club, and the song was playing. So it's like I heard the song in my head even before we even did the record. So I knew exactly how I wanted the record to sound, so to speak.

GROSS: I got one last question for you. On your, like, official documents, credit cards, if you have them, or driver's license, do you use the name Melle Mel, or do you use your birth name?

MEL: No, my birth name - Melvin Glover. That's my name.

GROSS: So how do you feel about that name now?

MEL: It's a nice name. You know, I don't really think here nor there about it. You know, some people hear the name Glover, they say, you related to Danny Glover?

GROSS: (Laughter).

MEL: I'm like, my pops was named Danny Glover.

GROSS: Oh, really?

MEL: Yeah.

GROSS: Oh. That's interesting.

MEL: Yeah.

GROSS: All right. Well, listen. Thanks so much for talking with us.

MEL: Anytime.

MOSLEY: Terry Gross interviewed Melle Mel in 1992. Tomorrow we'll continue our celebration of the 50th anniversary of hip-hop with Darryl McDaniels, co-founder of one of rap's oldest groups, Run-DMC. We'll also hear from LL Cool J and from record producer Nile Rodgers, the guitarist and co-founder of the disco group Chic. He'll talk about coming up with a bassline for the song "Good Times," which was used in Sugarhill Gang's "Rapper's Delight." I hope you'll join us.

To keep up with what's on the show and to get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at @nprfreshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley, and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. For Terry Gross, I'm Tonya Mosley.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "RAPPER'S DELIGHT")

WONDER MIKE: (Rapping) I said a hip-hop, the hippie, the hippie to the hip, hip-hop, and you don't stop the rocking to the bang-bang boogie, say up jump the boogie to the rhythm of the boogie, the beat. Now, what you hear is not a test. I'm rapping to the beat. And me, the groove and my friends are gonna try to move your feet. You see; I am one of Wonder Mike, and I'd like to say hello.

Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.