'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises

TERRY GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. It's Emmy week on FRESH AIR, featuring interviews with some of this year's nominees. We'll start today's show with Phoebe Waller-Bridge, the creator and star of the BBC-Amazon comedy series "Fleabag." The series has 11 nominations, two of which are for Waller-Bridge as best lead actress in a comedy series and best writing in a comedy series. She also created and wrote the first season of the hit series "Killing Eve," which leads to her second nomination this year for her role as an executive producer of "Killing Eve."

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

GROSS: In "Fleabag," Waller-Bridge plays a young single woman who's a feminist but suspects she's a bad one. She's sex positive but often doesn't enjoy the sex. She owns a cafe that's in financial trouble. She lost her mother a couple of years ago, and her father's response was to buy her and her sister tickets to feminist lectures. He also started dating their godmother. Phoebe Waller-Bridge's character presents a confident image, but she confesses what she's really thinking to the camera.

Note to parents - in a few minutes, we'll be briefly talking about how the main character's sexuality figures into this series. Nothing explicit, but we thought you should know. Let's start with the opening scene from Season 1, which is about sex, too. Fleabag is at home in the middle of the night, waiting at the door. She's out of breath because she's been rushing to get ready.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "FLEABAG")

PHOEBE WALLER-BRIDGE: (As Fleabag) You know that feeling when a guy you like sends you a text at 2 o'clock on a Tuesday night, asking if he can come and find you, and you've accidentally made it out like you've just got in yourself, so you have to get out of bed to drink half a bottle of wine, get in the shower, shave everything, dig out some Agent Provocateur business (ph), spin about the whole bit and wait by the door until the buzzer goes?

(SOUNDBITE OF BUZZER)

WALLER-BRIDGE: (As Fleabag) And then you open the door to him, like you'd almost forgotten he's coming over. Oh, hi.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) Hey.

WALLER-BRIDGE: (As Fleabag) Hey.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) Hey.

WALLER-BRIDGE: (As Fleabag) And then you get to it immediately.

GROSS: (Laughter) Phoebe Waller-Bridge, welcome to FRESH AIR. So as we just heard, the series starts with sex. So let's start the interview there, too.

WALLER-BRIDGE: OK.

GROSS: Your character, who you play, says - and I'm going to conflate here a sentence from the TV series "Fleabag" and also from your one-woman show. So your character says, I'm not obsessed with sex; I just can't stop thinking about it - the performance of it, the awkwardness of it, the drama of it - the moment you realize someone wants your body, not so much the feeling of it.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: So describe that kind of sexual obsession, where it's about the drama and the performance, being desired, but not so much, like, the feeling of sex itself.

WALLER-BRIDGE: Well, I think that idea came from a lot of conversations I was having with friends of mine and - about how - what their relationship with sex was. And actually, often with the women I'd speak to, when I was really boiling it down with them - and through my own experiences as well - it felt like the most sort of important part of it was the validation a lot of the time and less of, you know, what the woman herself desired and more about the feeling of being desired.

And I just thought that was a really - it was kind of sad (laughter) how many women I spoke to felt like that and that I could relate to that and that I felt like that, certainly through my 20s. And I just sort of thought that that would really key in - that'd be a really quick way to kind of key into this character.

GROSS: And she kind of describes a problem that that can lead to. She says, I know that my body as it is now really is the only thing I have, and when that gets old, I might as well kill it. Either everyone feels this way a little, or I'm totally alone. So, you know, if you placed your value, your identity, on your sexual desirability, and then you passed the age where people see you as - sexual desirability being your defining (laughter) attribute then what do you have? I mean...

WALLER-BRIDGE: Mmm hmm. You're screwed.

GROSS: Did you go through that in any way, large or small?

WALLER-BRIDGE: Oh, yeah, I did, totally, in my 20s. I would feel like - I felt very frustrated because I could also - I could intellectualize my own neuroses about it, and I could say, this is - I can see this feeling that I'm having is a wrong feeling, and it's going to totally screw me up later down the line. But yet, this - I could feel the pressures of it. Maybe it's also because I'm an actress, and I see - you know, you can see that a lot when you're growing up. It's just very, very beautiful women on screen and with media and the pressure and adverts. I mean, I went through phases of just - you couldn't open - I couldn't open a newspaper, and it would just be women in their bras, like, advertising mortgages.

(LAUGHTER)

WALLER-BRIDGE: I mean, it didn't even make any sense, you know. It's just like, why are we always naked everywhere? And which - you know, which I struggled with as well because, you know, I don't believe that - I don't - I'm not a prudish person, and I'm not - and I never want anyone to feel, like, censored, and I never want to be censored myself. But I just felt like it was being commodified, like, the female body and the female - and not for our - not in any way that was healthy or made anybody happy. And that really, really frustrated me. It made me kind of angry and rage-y (ph) in my 20s. And so I think that's where a lot of that feeling came from.

GROSS: So your character in "Fleabag," she knows how to bring herself to orgasm, although her partners don't necessarily know how. And this seems to be the first period where women writers are actually writing about masturbation. The act itself is not a new thing, but I think being written about in comedies that are on TV, I think that's new. You know, it's interesting because in male coming-of-age movies and men stand-up comics are always talking about this subject - well, always - like, so frequently talking about this subject, but not so much - rarely, if ever - in movies or TV shows about women until recently.

WALLER-BRIDGE: I know. It's so funny, isn't it?

GROSS: It's like it was a secret (laughter).

WALLER-BRIDGE: It's so funny how shocking - yeah, it is like a secret. And it's like the shock of it. Like, I remember when "Fleabag" first came out, and the idea that she was - 'cause a funny reaction happened to "Fleabag" was - the TV show - was that people were talking about it like there was an awful lot of nudity in it or very gratuitous sex in it. And actually, there's no nudity in it. And you don't see any sex. Like, you don't see it very graphically. But the language is very graphic. And the fact that, I think, I'm looking straight down the barrel of the camera and that you stay on her, she's talking you through these moments.

So when - there's a moment when I'm masturbating with my boyfriend next to me, and it just feels, like, really, really intimate, I think, because we held on it. But then the show was written about like it was the filthiest, most, like, exposing...

(LAUGHTER)

WALLER-BRIDGE: ...Like, couldn't leave how much nudity there was in it. And I had - kept having to correct everybody like, no, nothing happened. And I can't - like you say, I cannot count on my fingers and toes how many scenes I've seen of, like, men on TV since I can remember (laughter) - I mean, especially in comedy. But it just seems like this thing - that it's just, like, an everyday occurrence for men that we all kind of understand and we all kind of see that it's kind of adorable. Like, these poor guys have get on with it.

(LAUGHTER)

WALLER-BRIDGE: And, you know, for women, it's this, yeah, transgressive act of, you know - of something naughty or in some cases something dirty, I think. You know, the - that women pleasuring herself was, like, a deeply selfish act, whereas a man having to do it was just, he had to get something off his chest or wherever else it comes from.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: We were talking about how your character kind of defined herself by her sexual desirability. But in Season 2, she decided to stop having sex, or at least to stop having so much of it. And she says sex didn't bring anything good. It's in fact brought some things that were very bad. But in the meantime, she desires a young, handsome, witty priest who's going to perform the wedding ceremony when her father remarries. And she desires him so much, even looks up celibacy on Google to see if there's any way around it (laughter). There isn't, but she's still going to try.

And I want to play a short scene in which she's visiting the priest, who's played by Andrew Scott. He recently gave her a Bible, which she's been reading. And so she's talking to him about it in this scene.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "FLEABAG")

WALLER-BRIDGE: (As Fleabag) So I read your book.

ANDREW SCOTT: (As priest) OK. Great.

WALLER-BRIDGE: (As Fleabag) Well, it's got some great twists.

SCOTT: (As priest) True.

WALLER-BRIDGE: (As Fleabag) But it just - I couldn't help but notice...

SCOTT: (As priest) Come on. Just spit it out.

WALLER-BRIDGE: (As Fleabag) ...Just one or two little inconsistencies.

SCOTT: (As priest) OK. Share.

WALLER-BRIDGE: (As Fleabag) So the world is made in seven days. And on the first day, light came. And then a few days later, the sun came.

SCOTT: (As priest) Yeah. That's ridiculous.

WALLER-BRIDGE: (As Fleabag) But you believe that.

SCOTT: (As priest) It's not fact. It's poetry. It's moral code. It's for interpretation to help us work out God's plan for us.

WALLER-BRIDGE: (As Fleabag) What's God's plan for you?

SCOTT: (As priest) I believe God meant for me to love people in a different way. I believe I'm supposed to love people as a father.

WALLER-BRIDGE: (As Fleabag) We can arrange that.

SCOTT: (As priest) A father of many.

WALLER-BRIDGE: (As Fleabag) I'll go up to three.

SCOTT: (As priest) It's not going to happen.

WALLER-BRIDGE: (As Fleabag) Two, then.

SCOTT: (As priest) OK. Two.

GROSS: So in putting the priest in this position, I'm sure you had to think about what goes through a priest's mind when they're dealing with celibacy. Say they desire somebody. So what did you have to do to write that character, the character of the priest?

WALLER-BRIDGE: Well, I spoke to a monk quite extensively (laughter). And he'd also been a priest. And it was very important to me that this priest was - that the priest in "Fleabag" was portrayed as a fully multidimensional person and that his - that we could really feel his struggle and we really believed in who he was. And a big part of that for me was addressing that he's a sexual person because, you know, he's human, and that he will have some relationship to sex and he will have some drive, I believed, this character. So and I think it's really important to consider that about every person. Like, (laughter) everyone in the world.

So when I spoke to - and when I spoke to this Father William about it, he was incredibly, incredibly open with me. And it was really powerful, a moving conversation, because he said it was a daily struggle and it's something that he's very - that it's part of the struggle for him that makes him feel like he's really getting closer to God, or the more - that grapple is a conversation he has all the time with God. And he made it a very real, day to day, sort of live thing for me in my mind for this character 'cause he was saying it's - he basically was saying it's a bloody nightmare (laughter).

And then actually, you know, for me, there's - I'm not sure if it's a good thing that priests have to be celibate. And actually, the show, when it came out in the U.K., there were a few articles written about whether or not this is starting up another conversation about it in the modern world. But what was interesting is, also for me, when you take that one thing away from this man, that he can't give that to Fleabag, and that's the one thing that she wants basically from most men, is, at least, the potential for it. And from the moment they meet, he says there is no potential. We're going to have to connect on a new level.

And actually, Father William said that a lot. You know, he said you do, once you take that out of the equation, you do find other ways to engage with the world and with people. But it doesn't necessarily mean that it's completely out of his mind or he's at peace with it. So both him and Fleabag share a struggle with their relationship with sex. He's got a system to support him, and she doesn't.

GROSS: Well, I'll tell you what. Let's take a short break, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Phoebe Waller-Bridge, and she created, wrote and stars in the comedy series "Fleabag." She also created and wrote the first season of "Killing Eve." We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

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GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Phoebe Waller-Bridge. She created, wrote and stars in the BBC Amazon series "Fleabag." She also created and wrote the first season of the BBC America series "Killing Eve."

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

GROSS: Let's talk about your formative years. (Laughter). So...

WALLER-BRIDGE: (Laughter) OK.

GROSS: ...You went to a Catholic school for girls. How did the sex segregation work for you? And was this - like, how, old were you when you were in Catholic school?

WALLER-BRIDGE: I went there when I was 11. My mom had felt it was very important from day dot that we had boys around. (Laughter). As well as our brother and - 'cause my brother had, you know, sisters around the whole time, and we had him. But it's something about, actually, socializing. And so Mom was really, really good about making sure that we had boys and girls around the house. So I had a lot of, like, guy friends growing up 'cause of that. But then I also really loved the camaraderie of being around girls, and I still do. You know, I think there's something very special about that feeling.

But looking back, it does feel odd. The exclusivity of it is - does feel odd.

GROSS: So right before you went to Catholic school, when you were 6 until you were around 10 - and correct me if this is wrong 'cause this is just something I read - that you dressed as a boy. You shaved your head and called yourself Alex. (Laughter). Now, looking back on those years, do you understand why you wanted to do that?

WALLER-BRIDGE: Yeah, and I still have the same impulse all the time. I mean, I feel like when I was - I remember growing up, up until I was about - this is when 11, 12, is when I started dropping Alex and I was Phoebe again. But I just thought they just had more fun. I just wanted to be out climbing the trees and wearing comfortable clothes. And, you know, I just didn't feel like it was for me. And a lot of my friends were really into the dresses, and the dolls and that kind of stuff. It just wasn't my bag. And the only - and it just seemed so you kind of had to choose one or the other at that time. And I just definitely wanted to be climbing the trees and that kind of thing.

And so I had a friend, called Maria, and we both cut our hair really short and - yeah, I shaved (laughter) it at one point - and wore boxer shorts as swimming trunks. And we were just boys. I remember going into Gap once when I was about 7, and the guy coming up to me when I was with my mom and said, so what does the young man want? And I was like, yes...

GROSS: (Laughter).

WALLER-BRIDGE: ...Convinced.

GROSS: (Laughter). Do you think if that was happening today that your parents would wonder if you were trans?

WALLER-BRIDGE: I think my parents would have been exactly the same, you know? And they never had an issue with it. They never - they were just sort of like, sure, you're Alex. Let's take you to Gap, Alex. (Laughter). And I just remember it never being a problem. I mean, there's the tomboy kind of thing.

I mean, I wonder now if I had back then if I had - because I was very, very fervent about it when I was younger, as well. It was like I just desperately wanted to be one more than anything else. If it had been taken seriously and maybe by my school or something, and I'd been - and I'd spoken about those options - those options had been given to me, I probably would have jumped at it. But I don't think my parents would've been any different. I think they're just like live and let live. And so I was very, very happy being a girl dressed as a boy as long as I was allowed to express myself that way and allowed to change my name and stuff. They were like, yeah, whatever makes you happy.

GROSS: So did...

WALLER-BRIDGE: And one day, I turn up, and I'm like, I'm Phoebe now. And they were like, welcome home (laughter).

GROSS: What made you change? When you went back to Phoebe, were you also changing the way you dressed? Because the nice thing about when you're a girl or a woman, you can still wear man's clothes and - you know, because what are they? They're pants and jackets and shirts - you know? - and T-shirts.

WALLER-BRIDGE: Yeah.

GROSS: (Laughter) You know? They're just kind of standard. When a man wears a dress, that's making much more of a major statement than when a woman wears, like, jeans and a T-shirt, which both...

WALLER-BRIDGE: I know.

GROSS: ...Genders wear.

WALLER-BRIDGE: So unfair. So unfair (laughter).

GROSS: (Laughter).

WALLER-BRIDGE: It's just such a basic form of expression, just what you wear. And I do feel like that's the irony is that now it probably feels more limiting - clothes-wise, anyway - to be a man than it would be to be - it's massively more limiting. I - what changed it? I don't know. I went to a boarding school for a year and a half, two years. And then I think I was just in the kind of, like, middle range there. Like, I wasn't thinking either being a boy or being a girl.

But then I discovered boys in a big way and one in particular. I remember meeting a boy and then suddenly becoming really aware that I looked sort of boyish myself and that he probably didn't like that. And that was the kind of crossover point. And then I was like, hey.

GROSS: (Laughter).

WALLER-BRIDGE: (Laughter) This is - I was like, this stuff is fun. And then I just dressed like such a little tart for years and years and years.

GROSS: (Laughter).

WALLER-BRIDGE: And actually, that was the one thing that my mom - I do remember one - my - one conversation with my mom being like, you know what? I can't tell the difference between your bras and your T-shirts.

GROSS: (Laughter).

WALLER-BRIDGE: (Laughter) It might be time to have a conversation. But - so I really - yeah, I really - then I went super, super - not sure if I'd describe it as feminine (laughter) in terms of the way that I dressed, but it was definitely not boyish anymore. But I still feel more comfortable in, like, a hoodie and jeans than I ever do in, like, little kitten heels and a flowy skirt.

GROSS: How did you know you wanted to act?

WALLER-BRIDGE: It was such a strong instinct from early on. I just knew I wanted to be in plays. I knew I wanted to be part of a story. I loved telling stories. I loved telling jokes. I loved watching movies. I just - I think it - that there was an - I was extroverted. I loved expressing that (laughter).

And at school, it was just the most fun thing. You were allowed to swear in drama class, which was a big deal. And it was really social. And I just remember that feeling of being on stage. I played - I remember my first-ever job, she says, at my school - my first job was in - I think I must have been about - it wasn't a job. It was just a play in - at school. I must've been about 8, and it was "Pygmalion." And I really wanted to play the lead, and I was cast as the butler. And I was furious.

GROSS: (Laughter).

WALLER-BRIDGE: And I remember getting the script, and I had, like, three lines. And I went on stage. And I just thought, I'm just going to make this funny because I've got to make a mark because I've only got, like, three lines on stage. So I just made my voice really low and just spoke really slowly and kind of screwed this whole scene up for everyone else. But I remember, like, three people in the audience laughing. And I was like, I've found my reason for living (laughter). Yeah, and I just remember that feeling of just the - how exciting it is to be able to tell a story in front of people...

GROSS: Do you remember the three lines?

WALLER-BRIDGE: ...And the trust - I think it was something like, (laughter) you have a visitor.

GROSS: (Laughter).

WALLER-BRIDGE: (Laughter) Or something. Like, I just was, like, a creep. I was just a creepy 8-year-old butler. But I do - I really viscerally remember the feeling of, like, I love being on the stage, and I, like - I heard those three in the back, and I want that. I want more of that.

GROSS: My interview with Phoebe Waller-Bridge was recorded in May. She's the creator and star of the comedy series "Fleabag," which is nominated for 11 Emmys, including two for Waller-Bridge as the star and a writer. Our Emmy week series continues after a break with Ben Stiller and Patricia Arquette, who are nominated for Emmys for their work on the Showtime series "Escape At Dannemora." I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

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TERRY GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Our next guest, Ben Stiller, is nominated for an Emmy for directing the Showtime series "Escape At Dannemora." The series is nominated for 12 Emmys. Stiller is best known for his work acting in and directing film comedies and recently for playing Michael Cohen on "Saturday Night Live." "Escape From Dannemora" (ph) is a change in direction. The seven-part series is based on the true story of two inmates who escaped from a maximum-security prison in upstate New York in 2015. The series isn't just about planning and executing the escape. It's also a character study of those two inmates and the prison employee who helped them escape.

Both inmates, Richard Matt played by Benicio Del Toro and David Sweat played by Paul Dano, worked at the prison tailor shop where prison uniforms were made. They convinced the civilian employee who ran the shop, Joyce "Tilly" Mitchell, to get them the tools they used to escape by digging through the basement walls and steam pipes of the old prison. The two prisoners were able to manipulate her through sexual relationships with her. They told her they wanted to be with her after they escaped. What they really wanted was for her to be with them just long enough to drive the getaway car and get them to a safe place. She's played by Patricia Arquette, who's also nominated for an Emmy. We'll hear from her a little later.

The series opens with Arquette's character Joyce "Tilly" Mitchell in jail, this time as an inmate, not an employee. She's being questioned by the New York state inspector general who's investigating the escape. The inspector general is played by Bonnie Hunt.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "ESCAPE AT DANNEMORA")

BONNIE HUNT: (As Catherine Scott) Nice to meet you, Joyce.

PATRICIA ARQUETTE: (As Joyce "Tilly" Mitchell) Everybody calls me Tilly.

HUNT: (As Catherine Scott) Tilly it is.

ARQUETTE: (As Joyce "Tilly" Mitchell) Joyce is my mother's name. When you call me Joyce, I feel like you're talking to my mother.

HUNT: (As Catherine Scott) Is your mom still with us?

Oh, good. I love knowing my mom's just a phone call away.

ARQUETTE: (As Joyce "Tilly" Mitchell) I already talked to the cops.

HUNT: (As Catherine Scott) Four times in seven days, I understand.

ARQUETTE: (As Joyce "Tilly" Mitchell) Yeah. So what is this?

HUNT: (As Catherine Scott) Let's not get into any details until the stenographer gets here. I mean, even though it's all taped, it's actually more accurate. This girl, especially - she's been with me 15 years. I did a comparison, and I was right.

ARQUETTE: (As Joyce "Tilly" Mitchell) Are you with the state police?

ARQUETTE: (As Catherine Scott) Please - no, I'm the inspector general for the state of New York.

ARQUETTE: (As Joyce "Tilly" Mitchell) Oh, so the post office?

HUNT: (As Catherine Scott) No, the post office is federal. I'm state. So if there's any corruption in the state agency, it's my job to find it and stop it, whether it's a state park or the Port Authority, and I report directly to the governor.

ARQUETTE: (As Joyce "Tilly" Mitchell) Am I going to lose my job?

HUNT: (As Catherine Scott) Should you?

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

GROSS: Ben Stiller, welcome to FRESH AIR. And congratulations on "Escape At Dannemora." You were able to actually shoot at Clinton Correctional Facility in Dannemora, where the story is set. Did you have any protection when you were shooting in there? Did you feel like you needed any? Did the correctional facility feel like you needed any?

BEN STILLER: The first trip that we took in there, we got ushered into a little trailer that - sort of a permanent trailer. They had set up a meeting room in there. And the superintendent and the deputy superintendent and a bunch of people who were administrators at the prison gave us a talk and told us what we were going to be doing and the tour we were going to be taking and basically said this is a dangerous environment. They were going to do everything they could to keep us safe and keep things as low-key as possible. But the reality is, you know, you're in a prison. So you don't know what could happen.

And they tried to walk us through spaces at times when prisoners weren't there in the spaces. So, like, we were actually ushered into sort of this small, little office area when you first walk in where the corrections officers can lock themselves in to, you know, turn on lights and things like that. And because the timing was off, they had all - there were probably about 12 of us from the crew - we all kind of jammed into that little office while they let the inmates go out for lunch because we were - they were behind schedule. And that was a really strange experience because (laughter), you know, we're all jammed into this little office. And then, you know, the inmates were looking at us. We were looking at them.

And you know, they're human beings. They're people. But, you know, I'm sure they had their thoughts about - what are we - you know, what are these visitors up to? And then you just see, you know, the reality of life for these people, which is regimented. And it's - and obviously, they're all there for a reason. But as - you know, in terms of, like, the human condition of it, it's pretty heavy.

GROSS: You did meet with David Sweat, the survivor of the two inmates. He's the one who's played by Paul Dano. So he had, on July 4 - I forget what year it was - July 4...

STILLER: 2002.

GROSS: Thank you. He and some friends had robbed a fireworks - was it a fireworks and munitions store?

STILLER: Yes, I think it was a fireworks and gun store - something.

GROSS: And so they stole a lot of stuff, and they're going through what they got when a police car - well, it was actually a deputy sheriff - pulls up.

STILLER: Right.

GROSS: And do you want to describe the crime? It's pretty horrible.

STILLER: Yeah. I mean, it is. It is. They were a bunch of teenagers. I think he was - I'm not sure how old he was - maybe 20 or something like that. And he'd already had a record and had been in detention before. And they had, yeah, robbed this store, and they were transferring these guns from a pickup truck into his car or the other way around.

And this deputy was on patrol in Broome County, N.Y. He just happened upon seeing them in this parking lot. He saw something was going on, and he pulled into the parking lot. And he got out of the car, started to draw his weapon and, you know - and announced that he was police. And David Sweat shot him, I think, 13 times and then ran him over with his car. And then his friend came over and picked up the officer's gun and shot him two more times. And that's - you know, that's what he did to be sentenced to life imprisonment.

GROSS: And the really - I mean, it's absolutely horrible that he shot this deputy sheriff. The fact that after shooting him 13 times, then he gets - then the killer gets in a car and runs him over. That's just twisted. I mean, that's just sadistic and twisted. And here you were talking to him.

STILLER: Yeah.

GROSS: So how much of that did you keep in your mind? How much of it did you try to block out while you were talking to him and trying to get as much information and insight from him as you could?

STILLER: You know - well, to me, that's what the interesting thing is about incarceration and kind of this story that we're telling and how people act in life. And they can do a horrible thing, and then life goes on. And then, you know, they're - and they act normally or they, you know, are not - you know, they don't act like a monster. So if I'm just being totally honest, it was easy for me in the moment with him to let that go as I was asking him details of the escape.

I'm not saying that's a good thing, you know? It's not something I'm proud of, but the - so as I learned more about what he had actually done - and actually, when we filmed the scene, to, you know, have a small feeling of what that reality was and what happened - it actually, you know, it affected me much more. And then as the reality of the show came on the air and the fact that the officer's relatives were going to see this - you know, all of that brought it much more home to me. And I just say that in that it's - trying to, like, illustrate that I think it's easy sometimes for human beings to disconnect, and I think I was probably a little guilty of that when I was sitting across from him.

GROSS: Let's talk about the crime that landed the other escapee in prison for murder, and that's Richard Matt, who's played by Benicio Del Toro in the series - and oh, man, talk about gruesome.

STILLER: Yeah.

GROSS: He killed his former boss. I have to confess, I had trouble watching the scenes of the murder and torture, so I'd like to know how far you wanted to go with it because you really - I know you really want to convey the horror of this crime, the brutality of this person who you might have had some sympathy for in previous episodes because you don't show the murders till the end of the series. So you had a lot of decisions to make about how detailed to show the murder and the torture.

STILLER: Yeah. I mean, it's sort of a judgment call. It came down more as we were editing it. It got less and less in terms of what we saw. But it's very brutal and, I mean, the intention behind it was, hopefully, as an audience, you, you know, are jarred because you've developed this sort of - I don't know - impression of who these guys are based on who they've been for the last five hours of the series, who were just guys in prison trying to get out, which is what your experience would be of them if you met them the way I met David Sweat - as a guy just sitting there across me. But the reality is that they did these brutal crimes, so that's why I felt it was important to have it be shocking and brutal as a viewer after sort of being lulled into the reality of who they were now.

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is Ben Stiller. He directed the seven-part Showtime series "Escape At Dannemora," which is nominated for 12 Emmys. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

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GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Ben Stiller. He directed the seven-part Showtime series "Escape At Dannemora," which is nominated for 12 Emmys. It's based on the true story of two murderers who escaped from Clinton Correctional Facility in upstate New York in 2015.

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GROSS: So one of the ways they escaped is that David Sweat found this, like, giant hot water pipe that was turned off for the summer. He cut a hole in that, crawled out of that. It led to a manhole cover that he was able to open, and that's what ultimately led them to escape. Did you literally shoot in that pipe?

STILLER: (Laughter) Well, we shot in a pipe. We shot in an 18-inch pipe, which is what they were in, but it wasn't that pipe. But we basically recreated the set based on the actual dimensions of the area that they were where they got to that. They basically - he went down through that catwalk, got down into the bowels of the prison and found his way underneath all the buildings to the outer wall - the base of the outer wall of the prison. And there, in that - going into that outer wall was a steam pipe that was coming from the power plant that was about - I don't know - a thousand feet away from the prison. So he knew that that steam pipe led to the power plant, but this wall was in the way, and it was a seven-foot thick wall.

So we recreated that pipe and that area where the outer wall was where he did all the cutting, and then we found locations. We found a prison in Pittsburgh that was about 150 years old, even older than Clinton, and we shot in the actual underground area of that prison. And we also shot in waste treatment facility tunnels in Yonkers, New York, and then we also built pipe sections also. So it was a combination of all those.

GROSS: So some of your shoot was at Clinton Correctional Facility, where the story actually happened. You were first denied permission. Then you got a personal meeting with Governor Andrew Cuomo, and he gave you permission. What did you have to do to convince him that this wasn't going to be another version of "Oz"?

STILLER: I didn't have to do anything. I mean, we reached out, and I talked to his chief of staff, and she talked to him. And we told her - I told her what we were doing because we weren't able to get access to any prisons in New York, and I felt that as the governor and the New York State Film Commission, they would want us to have at least a chance to shoot more of the show in New York just for, you know, the revenue and for - since it's a New York story. And so I think that was part of it, and he was like, yeah, we want you guys to be telling the story here and bringing the business to New York. And he was also really fascinated by the story, so when I talked to her, she got us in touch with the Department of Corrections. And I think they talked to them and asked them to be helpful to us, and they said they would open up the manhole for us and let us shoot outside the prison.

And then he said, do you want to have a meeting? Because I'd like to hear what you're doing. And so I sat and talked with him, and he wasn't in any way questioning me as to what we were - you know, what was going to be in the story. He never once asked to see the script or make sure that they approved of what we were doing. He purely wanted to, I think, just hear what I was interested in in the story, and then - yeah. At the end of the meeting, he said, well, what can we do to help you? And that was the moment where I (laughter) - I was thinking of, like, the hundred people back at the production office who were - you know, we didn't have a location. And I was like, well, can we shoot at the prison? And he looked at his chief of staff. He said, well, you got to shoot at the prison, right? (Laughter) And I was very happy. But really, the fact that they allowed us to shoot - like, any of those scenes where Tilly and Lyle are going to work, and you see people going in and out of the prison or even just shooting the prison itself and the manhole - that they unsealed the actual manhole for us and the...

GROSS: During the escape - oh, so you filmed the escape with the real manhole.

STILLER: We filmed him - when he comes - when they come out of the manhole, that's the actual manhole. And that's the actual street, and that's the actual - that's basically what happened when they came out of the manhole in episode five when they walk around the block and decide to walk down the street and, you know, have a cigarette. That - that's, you know, according to Sweat, exactly what happened. And that's the place it happened in.

GROSS: So Patricia Arquette gained around 40 pounds to play the prison employee. And what issues does that create for you as a director? Because there was also, you know, the scenes that are shot when she's in prison or jail. And so her weight changes depending on what the time is that you're shooting.

STILLER: Right.

GROSS: So it takes time to gain weight, and it takes time to lose weight. So just as the director in that situation, as opposed to being the person who has to eat a lot or stop eating (laughter), what are the issues that you have to deal with?

STILLER: Well, I was concerned about it, first of all, because the shoot was so long. The shoot was eight months long. And I really felt like she needed to gain the weight to - you know, you can't just wear a sort of, you know, suit to make you look heavier. You know, it changes her face and all that. And she was also wearing teeth and contact lenses to make her eyes brown because she has these piercing blue eyes. And so it was a whole bunch of things.

But the weight was really, really important, I felt, because she has such - you know, she's a very classically beautiful woman who has these movie star looks, and it was just trying to sort of get away from that for this character. And it was tough because I kept on encouraging her to (laughter) eat. So - and Paul Dano was working out with a weight coach because he - he's, you know, not as built as David Sweat was because David Sweat built up in prison because he was afraid of getting beaten up. So all of them had to commit to changing their bodies.

GROSS: Well, Ben Stiller, it's been great to talk with you. Thank you so much.

STILLER: Thank you.

GROSS: My interview with Ben Stiller was recorded in January. He's nominated for an Emmy for directing the seven-part Showtime series "Escape At Dannemora." The series has a total of 12 nominations, including one for Patricia Arquette, who's nominated for her performance in this series. We'll hear from Arquette after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

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TERRY GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Our next guest on our Emmy week series is Patricia Arquette. She's nominated for two Emmys for her performances in two limited series, Showtime's "Escape At Dannemora" and Hulu's "The Act." She won an Oscar for her performance in the 2014 film "Boyhood." Arquette already won a Screen Actors Guild Award for her performance in "Escape At Dannemora," which is based on the true story of a prison escape. She plays Joyce Tilly Mitchell, who helped two murderers escape from prison. They got her to help them by pretending they each loved her and wanted to be with her after they escape.

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GROSS: As the story is portrayed in the film, both of the prisoners have sex with her. And it makes her feel sexy and desirable to have sex with them. And she does favors for them, including eventually getting some of the tools that they need to escape. She was even supposed to drive the getaway car, but she had a panic attack at the last minute and failed to show up.

I want to play a clip from the very end of the series when she's in jail - your character's in jail - on the day before her trial. She's with a guard, and she asks him if it's OK if she read the statement that she's written to read for the judge. So here's my guest, Patricia Arquette.

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PATRICIA ARQUETTE: (As Tilly Mitchell) Hey, would you do me a favor? Would you listen to this and tell me what you think about it? It's for when I have to give my statement to the judge.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As guard) OK.

ARQUETTE: (As Tilly Mitchell) Please allow me to start by saying how much remorse I have for everything that has happened with my part in Matt and Sweat's escape. I am 51 years old. This is by far the worst mistake I've ever made my life. I not only let myself down but my family. I love them more than life itself, your Honor. None of this was ever my intentions. I'm not a bad person. I realize I need to be responsible for my actions, but I am hoping you will have mercy on me, your Honor.

My lawyer said I have to sound apologetic. Does that sound apologetic to you?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As guard) It's worth a shot. Hey, sometimes I like to throw an inmate a little party the night before she gets out of here. Is that something you'd be interested in? I'll be around. Think about it.

GROSS: Well, it was a great performance.

ARQUETTE: Thank you.

GROSS: How were you able to find something to relate to in her character? Like, what did you find you could pick up on and really understand?

ARQUETTE: Well, I felt like Tilly was a real triangulator. I saw that Tilly was getting her needs met by these three different men. Like, in a way, if she could put these three men together, she would have her ideal mate. She has this Lyle version when he's younger and who - she thinks he's going to be the savior and this man is going to take care of her.

GROSS: That's her husband?

ARQUETTE: Yes, that's her husband. But years later, we see that they've kind of fallen into this rut where she takes him for granted, and she's become basically his caretaker in some kind of way, and there's a resentment about that. And then with Sweat, she has this very adolescent feeling, this excited feeling, like, as if she was the cheerleader and he's the football player. And it's, in a way, innocent, but it's also weirdly maternal. But she just thinks he's really a good guy, and she has a huge crush on him, and she's crazy about him.

GROSS: He's the prisoner played by Paul Dano.

ARQUETTE: Exactly. And then there's the third man, who is Benicio Del Toro's character, Matt. And I felt like with him, he scares her, but he's also the most alpha male she's ever been with. And she's used to being the alpha, so it's very strange for her to get thrown off her game. There's a part of that that she really likes, and it's confusing to her.

You know, she's living upstate New York. It's very cold. It's very harsh. You're working in this dangerous place, this prison. And she's in a marriage that - at that moment, all she can see is coldness. And where is her life going? And she's not feeling anything, and she doesn't feel alive. And then all of these men are there, and suddenly, I think she feels alive and seen and beautiful and sexual and desirable.

GROSS: You had to physically transform yourself to play Tilly. You gained 40 pounds. You wore prosthetic teeth. You had brown contact lenses. How does it feel to be in a different body when you're in a role? I mean, I feel weird when I put on clothes that make me uncomfortable. I mean, I don't feel quite myself. So, like, if you put on a body that's not yours, what does that feel like?

ARQUETTE: Well, conceptually, as a woman, I was really excited to explore this middle-aged woman being a sexual being and being really comfortable with her body and being sexual and, you know, in general, being comfortable with her body, even though later, she wants to lose weight and do all this - but in her sexuality, being in her body completely, which is so different than me because I've grown up in this Hollywood structure that's always telling you you're not right, no matter what the hell you look like. No matter how young and beautiful you are, you're not beautiful enough, and there's always something wrong with your body, and there's always something wrong with the way you look.

So the idea to play someone, a middle-aged woman who is unapologetic about her sexuality, was very exciting to me. But to do that for months - and some people in the business said, you don't have to really do that. Have them get you a fat suit. I was like, I'm doing real love scenes, and I actually want to go for this. And I want people to see that because I want to have that conversation. But in my real life, walking around for the many, many months - I think it was about a year, really, with all of this, even longer - it was hard. It was physically hard, and then people treated you really crappy. People treat you different.

GROSS: Oh, tell me about how people treated you differently.

ARQUETTE: They would look at you like, oh, are you still working? Or, you know - or they would just ignore you. Honestly, there's people who didn't know who I was at all, and they would ignore you in line or they would just push past you. You were the kind of an invisible person, which, I think, helped me with that part - her frustration of feeling invisible and wanting to be visible. But yeah, it's really weird. I think people do respond differently to people.

GROSS: Patricia Arquette is nominated for two Emmys for her performances in two true crime stories - Showtime's limited series "Escape At Dannemora" and Hulu's limited series "The Act."

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GROSS: Our Emmy week series continues tomorrow with two Emmy nominees from the Netflix series "When They See Us" about the wrongful conviction of the Central Park Five. We'll hear from Ava DuVernay, who produced, directed and co-wrote the series, and Michael K. Williams, who plays the father of one of the boys. The series is nominated for 16 Emmys. I hope you'll join us.

FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Ann Marie Baldonado, Therese Madden, Mooj Zadie, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Joel Wolfram. I'm Terry Gross.

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