As 'The Bear' wraps up, we listen back to an interview with Cousin Richie

DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm TV critic David Bianculli. "The Bear," the FX series about people running a Chicago restaurant, has won 21 Emmy Awards so far and is nominated for eight more for its fourth season, including for guest actress Jamie Lee Curtis and guest actor Rob Reiner. The show's fifth and final season currently is running weekly on FX and streaming in its entirety on Hulu. And "The Bear" is ending with a bang, not a whimper.

BIANCULLI: Today on FRESH AIR, we'll listen back to an interview from last year with Ebon Moss-Bachrach, who's already won two Emmys for the role of Richie, the family friend who now co-runs the restaurant known as The Bear. And I'll start with an appreciation and overview of the TV series because "The Bear" has been a delectable treat from start to finish.

Christopher Storer created and unveiled "The Bear" in 2022, telling the story of a talented chef, Carmen Berzatto, who left home to train at a Michelin-starred restaurant. He returns to Chicago after the suicide of his brother, Mikey, who had run a small sandwich shop. Carm, played by Jeremy Allen White from Showtime's "Shameless," decides to help his family by taking charge of the family business and eventually transforming it into a high-end restaurant. His family includes his sister Sugar, played by Abby Elliott, and their unstable mom, played by Jamie Lee Curtis. There's also a large, unofficial extended family, childhood friends and loved ones who call themselves cousins or uncles.

In its first season, "The Bear" hit TV with intoxicating originality. Its characters were compelling, and the cast was talented. White's portrayal of Carm was a study in both commitment and torment. Sydney, the new employee, played by Ayo Edebiri, rose quickly through the ranks due to her obvious vision and talent. But she, like the other chefs and staff members, had as much baggage as inspiration.

"The Bear" started out as part soap opera and part celebration of fine food. Each episode presented montages of the preparation and presentation of various dishes while examining the effort and emotional toll of doing that day after day. "The Bear" billed itself, and still does, as a comedy and has won all its Emmys in that category. But to me, watching "The Bear" is as tense as watching "The Pitt," and that's not a casually chosen reference.

By Season 2, "The Bear" was like a hot new restaurant with rave reviews. Everyone wanted to visit, and in terms of guest stars, almost everybody did. A brilliant program from that season was a flashback episode showing Christmas dinner with the extended family. And look who showed up on the guest list, Jon Bernthal from "The Walking Dead" as Mikey, their older brother, was there, even though in this show's narrative, he would die by suicide soon after.

Also at the dinner table, Oliver Platt as Uncle Jimmy, Bob Odenkirk as Uncle Lee, Sarah Paulson as cousin Michelle and John Mulaney as family friend Stevie. At dinner, Uncle Lee is goading Mikey for repeating old stories. Mikey responds by throwing a dinner fork at him, and it only gets more tense from there.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE BEAR")

EBON MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Cut it out.

BOB ODENKIRK: (As Uncle Lee) Rich.

JON BERNTHAL: (As Mikey) Hey, look, here's the thing. You see, I can throw forks 'cause this is our father's house, right...

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Mike.

ODENKIRK: (As Mikey) Rich.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Lee.

BERNTHAL: (As Mikey) My father's house.

SARAH PAULSON: (As Cousin Michelle) We have lift-off.

ODENKIRK: (As Uncle Lee) OK. You got everyone's attention. So...

BERNTHAL: (As Mikey) Yes. I do.

ODENKIRK: (As Uncle Lee) ...Go ahead and tell us a story we've all heard a million times already.

BERNTHAL: (As Mikey, laughing) That's good, Lee.

ODENKIRK: (As Uncle Lee) Yeah. Tell a story about how you're living with your mom, and you're borrowing money off of her and any other sucker who will listen to your bulls***.

OLIVER PLATT: (As Uncle Jimmy) Lee, shut the [expletive] up.

ODENKIRK: (As Uncle Lee) You're one of the suckers, Jimmy. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I've told him. I told him not to listen to you. I told him not to help. I told him to tell you to go scratch.

PLATT: (As Uncle Jimmy) Thanks a whole [expletive] lot, buddy. You come back next year, OK?

ODENKIRK: (As Uncle Lee) [Expletive].

BERNTHAL: (As Mikey) Oh, it's fine. This is totally, totally fine.

ODENKIRK: (As Uncle Lee) Yeah, it's fine. It's fine.

BERNTHAL: (As Mikey) This is fine. It's fine.

ODENKIRK: (As Uncle Lee) It's fine because this guy's nothing, and he's nobody. And I know you're scared, and you're afraid, aren't you, Michael? And, Michael, I don't know what the [expletive] you're on, but whatever it is, if you can hear me through the fog, throw another fork at me, you're going to get [expletive] rocked.

BIANCULLI: Subsequent seasons of "The Bear" have charted the restaurant's rise and fall, and through additional flashback episodes, given us deep dives into the pasts of various characters. Last season ended with the restaurant facing closure. But this new final season is all about staying afloat for one more day. Most of the eight-episode final season rolls out in a single day - just like "The Pitt" - on a day when supplies are down to almost nothing, there's a massive storm hitting Chicago, and there's a glitch in the reservation system that has them facing way more diners than they can handle. "The Bear" books each evening's tables to account for a number of turns - the total times each table can be cleared for a new service in a given evening. The staff is expecting lots of cancellations because of the horrible weather, but Ebon Moss-Bachrach, as Richie, delivers the latest news to the rest of the staff with, as always, plenty of expletives.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE BEAR")

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) All right. Team meeting.

JEREMY ALLEN WHITE: (As Carmy) Yo. How are we looking?

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) So let me preface this that we all knew that today was going to be a hard day when we came in here, right?

WHITE: (As Carmy) Yeah.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) But this...

AYO EDEBIRI: (As Sydney) Do we have at least a turn? Can you please say that...

LIZA COLON-ZAYAS: (As Tina) Jeffrey.

EDEBIRI: (As Sydney) ...We have at least one turn?

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) We have at least one turn. Yeah.

EDEBIRI: (As Sydney) OK.

WHITE: (As Carmy) What does that mean?

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Well, we have some reservations.

LIONEL BOYCE: (As Marcus) And my 7:30?

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Oh, yes, of course. Your 7:30.

WHITE: (As Carmy) All right. So what does it mean?

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) [Expletive].

WHITE: (As Carmy) The usual? Like a turn and a half, a turn and a quarter 'cause of the rain?

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) That and some more.

EDEBIRI: (As Sydney) How many more?

SARAH RAMOS: (As Jessica) Richie?

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) What? Just we have another turn and a half.

(SOUNDBITE OF THUNDER)

EDEBIRI: (As Sydney) Excuse me?

RAMOS: (As Jessica) We're at three.

WHITE: (As Carmy) Three.

EDEBIRI: (As Sydney) Three turns?

RAMOS: (As Jessica) Three turns.

EDEBIRI: (As Sydney) Three full turns.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie, laughing) Three turns.

EDEBIRI: (As Sydney) No.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Yes, we are going to [expletive] maximize.

EDEBIRI: (As Sydney) No, no, no, no. We're going to get destroyed.

ABBY ELLIOTT: (As Sugar) What's up?

RAMOS: (As Jessica) Oh, we're at three turns.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Yeah.

ELLIOTT: (As Sugar) What? That's impossible.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Check it.

MATTY MATHESON: (As Neil Fak) Why's everybody standing around?

EDEBIRI: (As Sydney) Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

ELLIOTT: (As Sugar) Richie, [expletive], we're at three turns?

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Yeah. Why is everybody freaking out?

ELLIOTT: (As Sugar) We're at three [expletive] turns? This is insane.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Yo, Cousin, you probably did three turns all the time.

WHITE: (As Carmy) Yeah, no. Absolutely. At the best restaurant in the world with 100 employees, a lot of money, and 13 Lucas.

EDEBIRI: (As Sydney) So we have none of that.

WHITE: (As Carmy) But to be positive...

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Shocker.

WHITE: (As Carmy) This is incredible.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Yes.

WHITE: (As Carmy) We need the money.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Yes, correct.

EDEBIRI: (As Sydney) We won't get the money if we can't handle this. We do not have enough food for three full turns.

RAMOS: (As Jessica) Yeah, correct.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) No.

ELLIOTT: (As Sugar) Yes.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) I understand that this is a lot of people. I get that, but we're going to circle our wagons. And we're going to turn this into a champagne problem.

BIANCULLI: At the end of this season, The Bear is shutting its doors. It does so with a beautiful final episode, one that is both emotional and satisfying and which serves all its characters well. But I can't help feeling a little sad - and not just because Abby Elliott, who broke out as a cast member of "Saturday Night Live," was so quietly moving in her dramatic scenes this final season that she brought me to tears. And now I'm sad to have to say goodbye to "The Bear." But if you haven't visited it, you should and still can. All five seasons are available on Hulu.

Now let's listen to the interview FRESH AIR's Ann Marie Baldonado did last year with Ebon Moss-Bachrach, who plays Richie on "The Bear." They began with a scene from the first episode of the series. Richie is dealing with the recent death of his best friend and business partner, Michael, and the return of Michael's younger brother, Carmy, who has plans to transform the neighborhood sandwich shop Richie used to run with Michael. Here's Ebon Moss-Bachrach as Richie with Jeremy Allen White as Carmy and Ayo Edibiri as Sydney.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE BEAR")

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Hold on. What - listen. Let's just have a conversation for a second. Whoa. The [expletive] is this?

EDEBIRI: (As Sydney) This is Sydney. I'm staging today.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) You're what-ing today?

WHITE: (As Carmy) That's Sydney. She's helping us out today.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Cousin, you order a different mayonnaise, bro?

(CROSSTALK)

EDEBIRI: (As Sydney) With these bananas?

WHITE: (As Carmy) No. All you, Chef.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Yeah, all you, Chef. This biff (ph) - he was using them to make a giant nut muffin.

WHITE: (As Carmy) It was a play on a panettone. It would have been beautiful if you'd let me finish it, all right?

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Richie Jerimovich. Pleasure to meet you, sweetheart.

WHITE: (As Carmy) Don't say sweetheart, you weirdo.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Darn it, Carm. You're so woke. I meant nothing by it, Sydney. Saying sweetheart's just part of our Italian heritage.

EDEBIRI: (As Sydney) That's beautiful. Thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Listen, I'm trying to talk to you, OK? Don't be rude and start doing a million things like (inaudible) .

WHITE: (As Carmy) I don't have time for it now. I don't have time for this right now.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) I don't remember having time to take you to your mom for six...

WHITE: (As Carmy) Don't you...

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) I got all kinds of receipts from my divorce lawyer backing up 'cause all the time I've spent trying to put your family back together, 'cause you're too much of a [expletive] to come home. The guys are texting me. You're telling them to do all sorts of weird [expletive] backwards. Don't do that, Carmen. Don't go messing with their heads and ordering different mayonnaise and hiring new broads without talking to me first. This is your brother's house, OK? Yeah? Remember? I was running it fine without you.

WHITE: (As Carmy) Why didn't he leave it to you, then?

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)

ANN MARIE BALDONADO: Ebon Moss-Bachrach, welcome to FRESH AIR.

MOSS-BACHRACH: Thanks. Thank you.

BALDONADO: I know that you're very protective of the characters that you play. So I want, you know - I mean this in the best possible way. I think that Richie is the character I've done the most dramatic 180 on, maybe ever. We just heard Richie from the beginning of the series. But as the show goes on, I know I'm not alone when I say that we're rooting for Richie. I feel that in many ways, he's the heart of the show, which is a testament to the writing and to your performance. What did you know early on about the journey that Richie was going to take?

MOSS-BACHRACH: I knew that this was a man who was suffering, who was finding himself in a world that he didn't really recognize anymore, who felt under threat, back against the wall, kind of, you know, trying to grab anything that was - could keep him afloat. And somebody in that position - I think that kind of a part can hold a lot of volatile, dangerous, spontaneous behavior, sort of. Like, a lot can be justified by somebody who's fighting for their survival. And then, as somebody who's, like, at a certain point in my life, you know, I also related to this guy. I'm just seeing, you know, so many things that I loved in my neighborhood, in my city changing and seeing things - everything becoming a bank. You know, I really related to him in that way.

BALDONADO: I will say that "The Bear" can be a pretty stressful watch. You know, there's yelling often, adrenaline always. And there's, you know, this anxiety that pulses throughout a lot of the time. What is it like to film? Does it feel that pitched as you're doing it? Does it feel that, like, high-octane?

MOSS-BACHRACH: It's funny for me to think about, like, a set that would be, like, how the scenes are. Like, they call cut, and then everyone's screaming at each other and putting out the cigarettes that were in the scene, and then lighting up cigarettes that they're going to smoke in between takes. No, I mean, to make something that alive-feeling, in a way, I think, you know, it takes an enormous amount of rehearsal between the actors, between the actors and the camera department and the props department. Our - like, we have such a deep and wonderful crew that - you know, it really requires a lot of sensitivity and listening. I think the people involved in making "The Bear" listen a lot more than Richie, Sydney and Carmy. So it's a very loving, fun, calm, well-run set.

BALDONADO: I want to play a scene from Season 3 of the show. The restaurant is getting off the ground, but both Richie and Carmy are still battling. They've just had a huge fight on the first day of service for friends and family, and they really yelled hateful things at each other. The character Richie even calls Carmy Dee Dee, which is Carmy's mom's name. And calling him that may be one of the biggest insults Richie could give because...

MOSS-BACHRACH: Yeah.

BALDONADO: You know, that mom is pretty, you know, troubled.

MOSS-BACHRACH: Yeah.

BALDONADO: Anyway, they're trying to get back on track and have the restaurant be successful, but they have different ideas about how to do that. So here's the scene.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE BEAR")

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Hey, Chef Syd, have you seen my iron? Also, when you have a sec, would you ask Chef Carmen what the [expletive] he did with my tables out front?

WHITE: (As Carmy) Chef Syd, would you please tell Richard that I thought I would set him up for success and arrange his tables in a more efficient pattern.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Is that what you did?

WHITE: (As Carmy) Yes, that's what I did. It was really funny. I walked in, and it was so strange. It looked like the person who had done it previously had never left the city of Chicago.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) You can leave the city of Chicago out of it.

WHITE: (As Carmy) Zero flow, no efficiency, so I thought I'd give you a hand.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie, laughing) Chef Syd, would you tell Chef Carmen that I can give him a [expletive] hand if he wants, right?

WHITE: (As Carmy) He wants to give me a [expletive] hand, he can give me a hand.

EDEBIRI: (As Sydney) I just might suggest that the both of you stop, 'cause I don't like this at all.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Syd, it's fine. Chef Carmen uses power phrases 'cause he's a baby replicant who's not self-actualized, which is maybe why he repeatedly referred to me as a loser.

WHITE: (As Carmy) Richie, I apologize.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) No, no, no, it's all good. I don't need your apology. I know how you feel now. Also, I respect your honesty and bravery from inside a locked vault.

WHITE: (As Carmy) You know what? Matter of fact, Chef Sydney, I don't remember Richard apologizing for all the [expletive] he was literally screaming...

EDEBIRI: (As Sydney) Natalie...

WHITE: (As Carmy) ...At me while I was in the fridge.

EDEBIRI: (As Sydney) ...Want to help here?

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Like, I love you?

ELLIOTT: (As Natalie) No.

WHITE: (As Carmy) What?

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie, laughter) You know what? Out there, that's my dojo. [Expletive] gets rearranged without my approval or consent, it creates an environment of fear, and fear does not exist in that dojo.

WHITE: (As Carmy) Richard, I added more two-tops 'cause all those four-tops were nonsense, OK?

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) You asked for four-tops in the first place, though.

WHITE: (As Carmy) I moved the flowers because...

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) You asked for four-tops in the first place.

WHITE: (As Carmy) Jesus Christ, that was a lot of flowers.

EDEBIRI: (As Sydney) Guys.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Those flowers are elegant as [expletive].

WHITE: (As Carmy) And I said I'm sorry. I kept apologizing, and you're screaming.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Am I?

WHITE: (As Carmy) Yeah. Yeah, you are.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Oh, yeah. That's rich.

WHITE: (As Carmy) Is it [expletive] rich, Richard?

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) You want to get the [expletive] out of my face, Carmen?

EDEBIRI: (As Sydney) Can you both shut up, please?

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Sorry, Syd. It's just textbook sublimation. You've seen it once, you've seen it a thousand times.

EDEBIRI: (As Sydney) I actually don't know what to do right now.

BALDONADO: That's a scene from Season 3 of "The Bear" with Ayo Edebiri, Jeremy Allen White and Ebon Moss-Bachrach. When a scene is like that, with that much screaming, is it written that way, or are you sort of improvising how you approach the arguing?

MOSS-BACHRACH: That scene. To quote Walter in "The Big Lebowski," 8-year-olds, dude.

BALDONADO: (Laughter).

MOSS-BACHRACH: That scene was as written. I mean, you know, at this point in Richie's life, you know, he's trying to do some work. He's reading some self-help books. And I - you know, I don't really have that kind of vernacular at my disposal - like, you know, all the self-actualization. And I'm sure there were some changes in words from take to take, but, yeah, I wouldn't call it, like, improvising.

BIANCULLI: Ebon Moss-Bachrach speaking to FRESH AIR's Ann Marie Baldonado in 2025. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

Let's get back to Ann Marie Baldonado's interview from last year with actor Ebon Moss-Bachrach, who costars as Richie on "The Bear." "The Bear" is now in its final season.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)

BALDONADO: One thing that's heartbreaking about Richie is how he mourns the end of his marriage. And because of flashbacks, we know that it seems like, on the timeline, as recently as five years ago, Richie and his wife were together. They were about to have a baby, and they were very much together. But by the time we meet Richie five years later, his marriage is over, and his ex-wife is with someone else. And I want to play a scene from that episode, "Forks." Richie is working at the Michelin-star restaurant for that week. He's taking a break and gets a phone call from his ex-wife, played by Gillian Jacobs.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE BEAR")

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Hey.

GILLIAN JACOBS: (As Tiffany) Hey. How are you?

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) I'm great. I'm great. You know? What's going on? Is Eva OK?

JACOBS: (As Tiffany) No, she's great. She's totally great. Yeah.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Oh, yo, Jimmy - I got those Taylor Swift tix.

JACOBS: (As Tiffany) You did?

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Yeah.

JACOBS: (As Tiffany) Listen - oh, she's going to be so excited.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) I know, right?

JACOBS: (As Tiffany) That's incredible.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Actually, I got three if you want to come, you know? You don't have to.

JACOBS: (As Tiffany) No, no, no, it's - I - that's so sweet. That's so sweet. I just - I know you're really busy, so I want to just tell you something, and it's a little bit hard to say.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) OK. Are you all right?

JACOBS: (As Tiffany) I'm fine. Yeah, I'm fine. I just want you to hear it from me. Frank proposed to me.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) What'd you say?

JACOBS: (As Tiffany) I said yes. He's, like, a really good guy.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) That's great, Tiff.

JACOBS: (As Tiffany) Thank you. I - and I want you to know that nothing's going to change between us.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) That's awesome.

JACOBS: (As Tiffany) You know, and I love you.

BALDONADO: That's a scene from Season 2 of "The Bear." Will we learn more about what happened to their marriage in that relatively short period of time?

MOSS-BACHRACH: Yeah, that scene. "Bear" - a comedy.

BALDONADO: (Laughter) Yeah, that scene's brutal.

MOSS-BACHRACH: First of all, Gillian Jacobs - such a great actress. I love working with her. Unfortunately, most of our scenes are phone calls because...

BALDONADO: (Laughter).

MOSS-BACHRACH: They don't have much of a relationship anymore.

BALDONADO: Right.

MOSS-BACHRACH: Actually, I do think there's a lot of tenderness there, and she genuinely loves him. Do we learn more about what happened with them? We spend more time with them together as parents, as exes. In terms of, like, a literal sense of, like, a flashback of the two of them, that's not something that we've shot.

BALDONADO: I think one thing that makes viewers love Richie is the way that he is with his daughter. Even though he's divorced, he's so devoted to her and doing the right thing by her and trying to be a good dad, besides having what seems like a tough upbringing where he sort of - you know, so much so that he becomes part of the family that own the restaurant. You have two daughters, and I think that being a parent of girls can be very - a very specific parenting experience. What did you want to make sure that you brought to Richie as a father?

MOSS-BACHRACH: I mean, some of the things that are challenging for him and making it difficult for him to navigate his way through the world - like loyalty, honesty, in a way, you know? So these things, I think, are sometimes hindrances and sometimes, you know, they're really great qualities. And I wanted - I wanted to see the kind of converse of some of these things in his relationship with his daughter. Obviously, he - you know, he's a dad that would doing anything for his daughter, like so many parents - like most parents would say. And then he's really into her world. And where he doesn't listen as well on the outside, with her, he - his time with her is so limited that it's so valuable, and I think each minute is something that he really invests himself and tries to be present in a way that he's not when he's at the restaurant.

BALDONADO: There's a scene later in that episode where Richie has completely won everyone over at the fancy restaurant. He's really getting it and getting the value of his work, and he's driving home singing along to the Taylor Swift song "Love Story." And it's this great, triumphant moment for Richie. How did that moment come about? It's just such a great moment.

MOSS-BACHRACH: It's so nice to spend just a few minutes, like, singing something loudly and celebrating and having exuberance and, you know, driving and singing along with a song that you love loudly. I mean, that's such a visceral, great kind of release. So yeah, I really enjoyed that evening. I loved those speed bumps. I loved the squeaks - the squeak of the suspension in the car.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE BEAR")

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie, singing)...This mess. It's a love story. Baby, just say yes.

(As Richie) Come on.

(SOUNDBITE OF TIRES SQUEALING)

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie, singing) Oh, oh.

BIANCULLI: Ebon Moss-Bachrach speaking to FRESH AIR's Ann Marie Baldonado last year. "The Bear," in which he costars as Richie, is presenting its final season on FX and Hulu. And Justin Chang reviews one of the most eagerly awaited films of the year, Christopher Nolan's "The Odyssey." I'm David Bianculli, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "LOVE STORY")

TAYLOR SWIFT: (Singing) When I met you on the outskirts of town. And I said, Romeo, save me. I've been feeling so alone. I keep waiting for you but you never come. Is this in my head? I don't know what to think. He knelt to the ground and pulled out a ring and said, marry me, Juliet. You'll never have to be alone.

BIANCULLI: This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli. Let's get back to our 2025 interview with actor Ebon Moss-Bachrach, who costars as Richie on the acclaimed FX series "The Bear." It's now streaming its fifth and final season on Hulu. Moss-Bachrach won two Emmys for the role. He also starred as Desi in the TV series "Girls" and stars as Ben Grimm, aka The Thing, in the Marvel film "The Fantastic Four: First Steps." Just this month, the stage production of "Dog Day Afternoon" completed its run on Broadway, with Moss-Bachrach in a starring role. He spoke to FRESH AIR's Ann Marie Baldonado.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)

BALDONADO: One of the first film roles you had was in the Wes Anderson film "The Royal Tenenbaums." You played a bellboy at the hotel where Royal Tenenbaum, played by Gene Hackman - where he lives.

Here's a little bit of that scene - or all of that scene...

MOSS-BACHRACH: Yeah.

BALDONADO: ...Actually.

MOSS-BACHRACH: For sure.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE ROYAL TENENBAUMS")

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Frederick) There's a call for you, Mr. Tenenbaum.

GENE HACKMAN: (As Royal Tenenbaum) Who is it, Frederick?

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Frederick) A Mr. Pagoda.

(LAUGHTER)

BALDONADO: That's you in the "The Royal Tenenbaums." What was it like being in this film? Was it one of the first times you were on a set? And if that's true, what do you remember about it?

MOSS-BACHRACH: I rewatched that movie the other day...

BALDONADO: Oh.

MOSS-BACHRACH: ...With one of my kids. And, God, it's such a good movie.

BALDONADO: Yes.

MOSS-BACHRACH: I'm so happy to be part of it, even in this tiny, tiny, little way. And I think, finally, enough time has gone by where I was like, you know what? I'm pretty good as Frederick the bellhop. I'm OK. I'm OK. It was the second time I was on a set, probably my first time in such a fancy hotel. I remember mostly Wes Anderson's attention to detail, him coming down like a tailor and sort of adjusting the hem of my pants, fixing my hair, adjusting my little pillbox hat. I mean, I got that part because I had, like, quite a good head of hair.

BALDONADO: Yeah. At the time, you had kind of curly hair that comes out of the pillbox sort of at the bottom.

MOSS-BACHRACH: Yeah, exactly. And it kind of explodes. It's like an upside-down volcano or something.

BALDONADO: Well, one of your breakout roles was in the TV show "Girls." You started out as a guest star who was only going to be in a few episodes but then became a series regular. When viewers meet you, you're auditioning for a Broadway play, and you meet the character Adam, who's played by Adam Driver, who's also auditioning and just starting out. And by the way, Desi is a successful actor. You know, he auditioned for a Broadway play, and he got the role. How did you see Desi?

MOSS-BACHRACH: I saw him as a little bit of a conman, really well put together on the outside, but a lot of crisis and chaos going on internally - a bit of a searcher. I feel like he was not committed, necessarily, to acting. He was a musician. I'm sure he painted. And a lot of maybe, like, clothing that - if I'm being, like, really not charitable, like, maybe pre-distressed...

BALDONADO: Yeah.

MOSS-BACHRACH: ...Jeans?

BALDONADO: Yeah, a lot of pre-distressed denim.

MOSS-BACHRACH: Yeah (laughter). But also, you know, somebody that felt very deeply, loved deeply - a baby.

BALDONADO: Yeah - a little bit. I want to play a scene from "Girls." Here, Desi is a regular cast member and is now with the character Marnie. They started out as a musical duo with some success. Eventually, Marnie and Desi get married, but they're also this musical duo, too. In this scene, they're arguing about what music to use in their upcoming showcase for a record label, which is important to their future career as musicians. Here's the scene.

MOSS-BACHRACH: It's so preposterous.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "GIRLS")

ALLISON WILLIAMS: (As Marnie) You know what?

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Desi) Mm?

WILLIAMS: (As Marnie) We should open our showcase with this song.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Desi) Mm. We only get two songs for the showcase.

WILLIAMS: (As Marnie) Yes, we get an opener and a closer, and this should be our opener.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Desi) Yeah. I mean, this is a great song.

WILLIAMS: (As Marnie) Thank you.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Desi) But this is not one of our top two.

WILLIAMS: (As Marnie) What do you like better?

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Desi) "Rattlesnake Cowgirl," "Heart For Sale," "Whoa, Wow, Wonderful," "Song For Marcus Garvey," "Oaxaca Blues," "Kokopelli Shelly" - I mean, that's top six right there.

WILLIAMS: (As Marnie) Mm. Yeah, I know. I just feel like it's our chance to show some range.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Desi) OK. See, what I think about the showcase...

WILLIAMS: (As Marnie) Yeah.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Desi) We put our best foot forward.

WILLIAMS: (As Marnie) Agreed.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Desi) And if half of our set is a syrupy love song, that's a total mislead, babe, you know?

WILLIAMS: (As Marnie) But we sing love songs.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Desi) Not really. We sing, like, modern American folk with an indie edge.

WILLIAMS: (As Marnie) I tell people that we're like She & Him, but with actual romance.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Desi) But we're nothing like She & Him.

WILLIAMS: (As Marnie) We're not?

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Desi) Whoa.

WILLIAMS: (As Marnie) You're blowing my mind right now.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Desi) Marnie, we are nothing...

WILLIAMS: (As Marnie) I hope we're like She & Him. My God.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Desi) We are nothing - are you kidding me right now? You're freaking me out. We are nothing like She & Him, OK? We're nothing like that band. How can we have completely different takes on the same band that we are both in. That is bizarre to me.

WILLIAMS: (As Marnie) I'm starting to wonder if maybe you don't like "Close-Up" because I wrote it instead of you.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Desi) No.

WILLIAMS: (As Marnie) Would that be it?

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Desi) I like this song.

WILLIAMS: (As Marnie) Are you sure?

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Desi) I loved this song.

WILLIAMS: (As Marnie) OK. What do you mean loved this song?

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Desi) And then you told me that you're writing She & Him songs, and now, like, my whole - I got to do a heavy rethink here.

WILLIAMS: (As Marnie) How about we talk about the partnership that I thought we were in...

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Desi) We're in a partnership.

WILLIAMS: (As Marnie) Whereas, recently - no. Recently, it's just been me writing while you tinker with your motorcycle.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Desi) I'm - that's my - that's my mode of transportation, Marnie. That is my mode of transportation.

WILLIAMS: (As Marnie) That doesn't change anything.

MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Desi) That's how I get - that's weak, dude. That's my mode of transportation.

BALDONADO: That's a scene from "Girls."

MOSS-BACHRACH: (Laughter).

BALDONADO: Did you watch "Girls" at the time, when it was airing?

MOSS-BACHRACH: I didn't, no. I watched a little bit of it the first season. But I also was - I was, like, so jealous that I was...

(LAUGHTER)

MOSS-BACHRACH: I really wanted to be a part of it. And so it was complicated for me to watch it.

BALDONADO: It was filming right there. It was filming, like, right by you.

MOSS-BACHRACH: Yeah, exactly. I would walk by. And then once I was working on it, I wouldn't watch it much just because I didn't want it to sort of affect the way I was going to continue to work on it, you know? I didn't want it to make me self-conscious.

BALDONADO: What do you think of that scene, hearing it now?

MOSS-BACHRACH: Oh, my God, that scene is...

(LAUGHTER)

MOSS-BACHRACH: That list of songs is really, really funny.

BIANCULLI: Ebon Moss-Bachrach spoke to FRESH AIR's Ann Marie Baldonado in 2025. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MILES DAVIS QUINTET'S "I COULD WRITE A BOOK")

BIANCULLI: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Ann Marie Baldonado's 2025 interview with actor Ebon Moss-Bachrach, who costars as Richie on "The Bear."

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)

BALDONADO: Next month, you truly enter your Marvel era. You've been in the Marvel Universe before. But you're becoming a main character in the new movie, "The Fantastic Four: First Steps." You play the character Ben Grimm, who develops mutant supernatural powers and becomes The Thing. This first movie is coming out, and then you'll reprise your role in the two new upcoming Avenger films. So you're definitely, you know, in for more than one movie. What was it like being in this film?

MOSS-BACHRACH: Yeah, very different kind of part for me. I guess the biggest departure would be that it's motion capture, performance capture. So I wear these groovy-looking pajama kind of tights and top and then I have wires strapped to various points of my body, and then I have a helmet with kind of GoPro-looking cameras kind of on little extended gimbals right in front of my nose to sort of capture my eyes and my mouth and my facial expressions.

BALDONADO: And where are you - what space are you in when you're doing this?

MOSS-BACHRACH: I'm in - on the set. You know, and I haven't seen the movie yet. But one thing I do know is that, you know, the art department and our production design is really spectacular. And so they were really pretty incredible set builds, like things that I had never seen before that, like, reminded me of, like, old style, like D.W. Griffith kind of, like, moviemaking. Huge, big, sprawling sets of New York and Times Square and the Lower East Side. The incredible mid-century modern house that the Fantastic Four live in.

BALDONADO: Oh, yeah.

MOSS-BACHRACH: So I'm just on all these really cool sets and very much involved as I would be. You know, I'm just in there with the other people in the scene, and I'm interacting with them, and they're in costumes. And I'm just sort of in this other, strange, techie kind of, you know, placeholder for what will then be built around me, animated. You know, this much bigger, orange, rock guy.

BALDONADO: Can you describe your character, Ben Grimm, who is The Thing? I'm not sure how much of the original story from the comic book series and from other movies are still part of this character.

MOSS-BACHRACH: You know, people feel so strongly...

BALDONADO: Yes.

MOSS-BACHRACH: ...About this. You can't stray too far from the path. You got to keep it pretty canon. Ben is from the Lower East Side. He's from Yancy Street, which is maybe, like, a little bit like Delancey Street, maybe. And he's a school friend of Reed Richards, he's a football player, he's a wrestler. He becomes a star pilot, really amazing pilot. And Reed is this genius scientist that convinces Ben and his wife, Sue, and her brother to go up - to steal the ship and go into outer space.

And there's, like, a storm, some kind of space storm. And these gamma rays penetrate the ship, and they all return changed forever. Ben is more changed because he has physically been altered. He has this new rock kind of dermis. So he looks like a monster. And he doesn't change back and forth like the Hulk or anything. That's just how he is for the rest of his life, with a couple of exceptions.

BALDONADO: Oh, that's right. Yeah, your character stays as a rock.

MOSS-BACHRACH: Yeah, that's really key to his psyche, I think.

BALDONADO: I haven't seen "The Fantastic Four" yet, but I like that you're playing another character that has this rock exterior. In this case, literally, he's made of rock. You've said that this acting, compared to your other roles, it's almost like another job. I was thinking that you show so much emotion through your face and through your physicality. What did you mean that it's almost a different kind of job? What are other ways that it's different?

MOSS-BACHRACH: I would think about it a lot in two ways. And my - over the course of a day, like, my brain would go back and forth. On one speed was that I was just trying to imbue this character with as much humanity as I could because I felt like I had to, in some ways, fight through all of this animation. And because I was interested in - I think it kind of was similar to probably Ben's experience on a day where he knows how he seems and he knows he looks like this horrible monster. And so he's making a concerted effort to bring his humanity through to make people feel OK, to make people feel less - to make people be less mean towards him, to sort of undercut his external appearance.

So I had that - that was going in one way while simultaneously, I always had all this physical freedom and that in many ways, this technology and this animation was like a mask. And I had - I wasn't confined to my body and my physical appearance the way that I am for any other part I've ever done. So there was things I could do with movement, with heaviness and the way he would - he has huge hands, huge feet, the way he would interact with things. So that became a much more imaginative fantasy, sort of almost like how I would play make-believe when I was a kid, you know?

BALDONADO: So you are thinking about movement in a different way?

MOSS-BACHRACH: Yeah. Well, certainly, I mean, I had to. He can't - couldn't really move the way that I can move. I mean, he's very, very heavy. He weighs thousands of pounds. At the same time, he's very nimble, but, I mean, I'm a kind of uncoordinated, lanky sort of - I don't know - (laughter) wet rubber band or something. So he's a much heavier, grounded dude.

BALDONADO: Now, it was recently announced that you will be on Broadway next year in a stage play, "Dog Day Afternoon." It's based on the same real-life robbery that the 1975 movie "Dog Day Afternoon" was based on. You star with Jon Bernthal, who is someone you costar with in "The Bear." You were also on the show "The Punisher" with him, and I think you've done plays together. I actually read that you recommended him for the part of Michael on "The Bear." Is that true?

MOSS-BACHRACH: Yeah. That's true. Yeah. I got Jon that job, so he got me this "Dog Day Afternoon" gig. So now we're even (laughter).

BALDONADO: Well, so - and, you know, what was it about him that you thought would be good for Michael, who's the best friend and...

MOSS-BACHRACH: Yeah.

BALDONADO: ...You know, the brother who passed away, who committed suicide?

MOSS-BACHRACH: And we don't really see him - correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't really see him at all in the first season until maybe just the very end of the season in a flashback. Is that...

BALDONADO: I think that's true.

MOSS-BACHRACH: Am I remember remembering that correctly? I think something like that. And in my mind, when I was reading the scripts, I kind of felt like we would never see him. And I thought that that was probably the way to play it because he's so talked about. He's this specter sort of informing everything, and I just thought it would be disappointing or maybe - I just like that idea of let everybody in the audience - let them have their own idea of who this person is, who's larger than life. And so when Chris Storer, our showrunner, was asking me if I thought - if I had any ideas for who could be - play Michael Berzatto, I was like, I don't think we should ever see him. I just think that will just diminish 'cause - anything.

And then at one point, I did - I was like, you know what? Actually, Jon is such a larger-than-life, magnetic, charismatic person. I was like, you know, what would you think about Jon Bernthal? And I suspect that Chris all along was sort of encouraging me to reach out to Jon. I think - I'm pretty sure that he - all along this was - he was just waiting for me to come to this realization. And I think Jon's, you know, terrific, really, really great in this part, and also, like, one of the few actors that could fill the shoes of this guy.

BALDONADO: What is your connection to the story and the film "Dog Day Afternoon"? Because you'll be playing the role of Sal, which was originated by the actor John Cazale, who appeared in only five movies before passing away too young. But the five movies were "The Godfather," "The Conversation," "Godfather Part II," "Dog Day Afternoon" and "The Deer Hunter." He was also a theater actor - like, an actor's actor. I was wondering if a young Ebon Moss-Bachrach dreamed of having an acting career like John Cazale?

MOSS-BACHRACH: Oh, 100%. I mean, what a gift. What an incredible gift he was. You know, "The Conversation" is, like, probably my favorite movie. I mean, it's a tragedy that we - that he died so young, but it - I mean in his...

BALDONADO: Yeah, of lung cancer.

MOSS-BACHRACH: Yeah, in his short time here. Oh, my gosh. What a force.

BALDONADO: Yeah.

MOSS-BACHRACH: So yeah, I do feel - you know, it's like, I'll try to do my best to honor this guy, but we're going to make it a bit different, make it something else.

BALDONADO: Yeah. So it's based on the same source material, which was this true story of a bank robbery that happened in New York, and that became the movie. But the playwright is going back to that original material, too.

MOSS-BACHRACH: Yeah. There's a lot of stuff going on in that robbery, and before that robbery, that's not in the movie that's really interesting, that we're digging into. There's a lot there.

BALDONADO: When you announce something like that, a Broadway show that you're going to do next year, what is the process of preparing? Because I'm sure you're doing other things, too. But is it just that that's sort of when it fits into your schedule, or do you do things in the year lead-up? Or both?

MOSS-BACHRACH: My process right now is to pretend that it's not happening for as long as possible and to delay, delay, delay. But, yeah, I don't know. I'm very, very, very excited to do this thing and to spend a few months with my dear friend Jon, and I'm sure it'll be a wonderful cast. And I like nothing more than, like, working on new American plays. It's kind of my favorite thing to do, to be in that rehearsal room when the writer's there. The writer's alive, they're there. It's a work in progress. It's a deep, deep collaboration between writer, director, dramaturge and the whole cast. It's like everyone's getting their hands dirty. It feels very alive and exciting, and it's been a long time since I've done that.

BALDONADO: Ebon Moss-Bachrach, thank you so much for joining us.

MOSS-BACHRACH: Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.

BIANCULLI: Ebon Moss-Bachrach speaking last year to FRESH AIR's Ann Marie Baldonado. "The Bear," in which he costars as Richie, is presenting its final season on FX and Hulu. "The Bear" is nominated for eight more Emmys at this year's Emmy Awards, which will be presented in September.

Coming up, film critic Justin Chang reviews Christopher Nolan's "The Odyssey." This is FRESH AIR.

: [POST-BROADCAST CORRECTION July 17,2026: In this review, we incorrectly say that Odysseus spent two decades returning home after the Trojan War. Rather, he spent one decade at the war and another decade trying to return, for a total of two decades away from home.]

DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. In Christopher Nolan's much-anticipated adaptation of Homer's "Odyssey, " Matt Damon stars as the ancient Greek warrior king Odysseus who, after fighting in the Trojan wars, spends years trying to find his way home to Ithaca. The star-filled ensemble cast also features Anne Hathaway, Tom Holland and Robert Pattinson. "The Odyssey" opens in theaters everywhere this week. Our film critic Justin Chang has this review.

JUSTIN CHANG, BYLINE: Both admirers and detractors of the writer-director Christopher Nolan have noted his long-standing obsession with dead wives. In movies like "Memento," "The Prestige" and "Inception," the male protagonists are driven toward reckless, delusional and even vengeful acts by the memories of their late spouses. One of the refreshing novelties of Nolan's new film, "The Odyssey," is that the wife in question here is alive and well. She's Penelope, queen of Ithaca, played by Anne Hathaway. And her husband, Odysseus, played by Matt Damon, spends two decades trying to return home to her after the Trojan War.

Nolan, working largely from Emily Wilson's celebrated 2017 translation of Homer's epic poem, lays out the story in unexpectedly straightforward fashion. Penelope and her son Telemachus - that's Tom Holland - cling to hope that Odysseus will return. Meanwhile, coarse suitors have taken over the palace, vying for Penelope's hand in remarriage. Robert Pattinson plays the most conniving of the lot, who tells Penelope that Odysseus will never return.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE ODYSSEY")

ROBERT PATTINSON: (As Antinous) This is a household waiting for a master. I want you to choose me.

ANNE HATHAWAY: (As Penelope) Ithaca's king is coming back.

PATTINSON: (As Antinous) No, he's not.

CHANG: But Odysseus is, in fact, still alive on a distant island. His memory has been bewitched by the nymph Calypso. That's Charlize Theron. And the story of his long, long journey tumbles out in a cascade of flashbacks. The jumbled timeline suits Nolan's love of nonlinear plotting. Still, I had a lot of questions going in. How would a filmmaker known for his narrative surprises tackle one of the best known stories in all literature? And how would a director of heady, high-tech action movies adapt to Homer's ancient world of gods and monsters?

The gods themselves are largely absent, with the exception of Athena, who pops up every so often in the form of Zendaya to counsel Odysseus. Nolan is a downbeat realist by nature, which gives "The Odyssey" a fascinating tension. It's a fantasy made by a skeptic at heart. The supernatural elements have been tamped down. When the island-dwelling sorceress Circe briefly transforms Odysseus' men into pigs, the magic has a low-key, almost tactile realism, aided in no small part by Samantha Morton's chillingly intense performance as Circe.

And when the men outwit a giant cyclops in his layer, Nolan pairs away almost all the dialogue - gone are Odysseus' showboating speeches - and goes full-bore monster movie in a way he never really has before. Visually, Nolan is clearly pushing himself. The film was shot entirely with 70 mm IMAX cameras, and the images of Odysseus' ships at sea are stunningly majestic. There's a ferocious intimacy to the action scenes, some of which play out in near total darkness, illuminated only by flickering firelight and set to Ludwig Goransson's pulse-pounding score.

Nolan brilliantly recreates the famous Trojan horse deception, masterminded by Odysseus himself, in two gripping set pieces, culminating in the total destruction of Troy. As he recalls these shattering events, Odysseus is flooded with regret, which Damon fully conveys in a terse, plainspoken performance that ranks among his finest work. Nolan treats the sacking of Troy as an epical tragedy, comparable to the dawn of atomic warfare in "Oppenheimer," an event that forever changed how humans and nations dealt with each other.

In a way, Nolan has been telling versions of Homer's epic for decades. His films are about men trying to find their way home, even when home and the world around them has become almost unrecognizable. "The Odyssey" is thrilling but uneven, though it moves pretty swiftly for being so overstuffed. There are striking performances from Lupita Nyong'o as a fiercely defiant Helen of Troy, Himesh Patel as Odysseus' second-in-command and a very moving John Leguizamo as an Ithacan swineherd who longs for Odysseus' return.

Throughout the film, you can almost feel Nolan thinking his way through the material, figuring out which parts of the text to leave alone, and which parts to cut or embellish. Some sequences, like when Odysseus tussles with the sea monsters Scylla and Charybdis, feel a little perfunctory. But then we'll get an inspired subplot featuring Elliot Page as a Greek soldier whose grim fate weighs heavily on Odysseus' conscience, and you remember that Nolan, whose style has often been dismissed as coldly intellectual, is one of our most emotionally driven filmmakers.

There's no puzzle-like trickery to the final act of "The Odyssey." It plays out with a classical simplicity and directness. And Damon, Hathaway and Holland are entirely convincing as a broken family being pieced together at long last. You realize why Nolan wanted to make this film and why it feels like a prism through which his earlier films can be more deeply understood. For him, no less than for Odysseus, "The Odyssey" feels like a homecoming.

BIANCULLI: Justin Chang is a film critic for The New Yorker. He reviewed Christopher Nolan's "The Odyssey." Harriet Clark was 11 months old when her mother was a getaway driver in the infamous 1981 robbery of a Brink's truck. The robbers were members of radical offshoots of the Weather Underground and the Black Panthers. For the next 37 years, Harriet spent Saturdays visiting her mother in prison. Her new novel is based on that. She's on Monday's show. Hope you can join us.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

BIANCULLI: To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at @nprfreshair. You can subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com/@thisisfreshair. We're rolling out new videos with in-studio guests, behind-the-scenes shorts and iconic interviews from the archive.

FRESH AIR's executive producer is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support from Julian Herzfeld, Adam Staniszewski and Charlie Kaier. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Meyers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. For Terry Gross and Tonya Mosley, I'm David Bianculli.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.