150 years after his birth, composer Charles Ives remains a maverick

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Will Ferrell found out about three years ago that his close friend and former "Saturday Night Live" writing partner was coming out as a trans woman named Harper Steele. Ferrell decided to make a documentary about this transitional period in their friendship. Early in the film, Will and Harper read the coming out letter Harper sent to Will in 2021 when Harper was 59. Will reads first.

(SOUNDBITE OF DOCUMENTARY, "WILL AND HARPER")

WILL FERRELL: (Reading) Hey, Will - something I need you to know. I'm old now, and as ridiculous and unnecessary as it may seem to report, I'll be transitioning to live as a woman.

HARPER STEELE: (Reading) In the last 10 years, I've been trying to understand what's going on, tried to get rid of it over and over again throughout my life. And now I'm giving up the fight. When I was young, I thought all boys felt like me. Then I thought, maybe I'm just a weirdo. Then I pushed it away for many years and ended up in therapy. It's a wonderful thing when your mind and body revolt against the unnatural, despondent thing you've become. I doubt being a trans woman will change my personality that much. Instead of an asshole, I'll be a bitch. I think it's made me a lot happier.

FERRELL: (Reading) I'd like to say my happiness translates to a bright, carefree future full of courage and confidence, but no such luck. I carry self-doubt and fear around me, like the comedian I've been my whole life.

GROSS: As their friendship journeys into new territory, the film follows Will and Harper on a cross-country road trip from New York to California, alternating driving. They stop on places that Harper used to go to before transitioning that she's now afraid may be unsafe for her to go alone as a trans woman, like a dive bar in Oklahoma, an Indiana Pacers basketball game, and a steakhouse in Texas. Their new film, "Will And Harper," is streaming on Netflix.

The two met in 1995 when they both started working at "Saturday Night Live." Harper stayed until 2008 and spent the final four years as head writer. After that, she moved to the comedy website and production company Funny or Die, which was founded by Will Ferrell and Adam McKay. Ferrell left "SNL" in 2002. He starred in such films as "Anchorman," "Talladega Nights," and "Blades Of Glory." He was an executive producer of HBO's "Succession."

Will Ferrell, Harper Steele, welcome to FRESH AIR. I really like the movie, and I feel like I got to know you, Harper, in the film. So I'm glad you shared your story, and I'm glad, Will, that you shared your friendship together. So, Harper, what made you think it was the right time to come out to friends?

STEELE: Well, it wasn't a decision about right timing. It was a decision about living in misery and not wanting to do that anymore. So it just took me a long time to finally give up, and I do think of it as a giving up. I just collapsed into myself and found the other side and it's been so much better.

GROSS: Right. Will, what was your reaction when you got that letter? And I'm even wondering, and excuse me if this sounds weird. I'm even wondering if you thought it was a joke at first. You know, if you were that unprepared.

FERRELL: Yeah. Right. No, definitely - yeah.

GROSS: Because Harper is a comedy writer.

FERRELL: No, definitely unprepared. It was a complete surprise. Knowing Harper for as long as I did, knowing her dead self, that was an expertly acted role for all those years because it was so convincing that I didn't see it coming. And then you fall back on, whoa, what do I do? What's the right thing to say? How should I say it? And I just wanted to respond quickly and say, oh, my God, this is wonderful. Wow. Congrats, and I can't wait to see you in person, which took a little while.

GROSS: You know, you mentioned that you felt Harper had been playing a role. And I was wondering, you know, Harper, in your years on "Saturday Night Live," all the actors were playing roles. They were all in, like, sketch comedy, playing a different role each week or doing their own recurring characters. Did you feel in those years that you were playing a role, too, but you weren't on stage, you were playing your role in real life?

STEELE: Yeah, I mean, I always felt that way. I don't like to turn these things into black and white. Harper Steele has been with me since I was born. So I was at "SNL" as myself, Harper Steele, and, yes, there's a protective, you know, armor around that that was the role that I played. And I don't even hate the role. I just - it just was just sort of probably my survival instincts - unconscious, maybe even.

GROSS: Will, when you were first getting to know your old friend as Harper, did you worry that you would, like, use the wrong language or accidentally misgender her because you were so used to your friend having a different name and a different gender - publicly...

FERRELL: Yes.

GROSS: ...The public-facing version.

FERRELL: Sure. Yes. I mean, that was all part of the learning curve. And I'm sure when we sat down in my backyard to have a cup of coffee, I probably misgendered you accidentally in that hour and a half that we sat down. And Harper was - you know, just made it really clear that - like, don't worry about it. Like, you know, I'm glad that you're recognizing it and correct the moment as well as you can, but it's going to take some time and to, you know, be cognizant of it.

But at the same time, don't be too hard on yourself, and that my heart's in the right place with all - but, you know, after spending time, after really getting to be around Harper, that becomes very easy. I mean, it becomes very easy to use the right pronouns. I think Harper - right? - you've - everyone in your life has gone through this...

STEELE: Oh, yeah.

FERRELL: ...This kind of...

STEELE: I've gone through it.

FERRELL: Yeah.

STEELE: I've gone through it. I mean, you know, I think as a stock phrase I used, I'm not the kind of guy who does that. That stock phrase is automatic. And so, yeah, I misgender myself. And when it comes to friends, I sort of feel out the situation if people are misgendering me and it's annoying me, then I correct them. If it's friends, I correct them in my funny way, and, you know, but I don't like my friends to feel on edge around me talking about my transition or talking about who I am now. I don't want them to feel that, so I'm not interested in nailing everyone around me.

FERRELL: What's happened with me, though, as I've become more comfortable with it, and it's become second nature, I've found a certain vigilance when we're out together, and someone by chance, does misgender Harper, I'm immediately like, uh-uh (ph). Uh-uh. Excuse me.

STEELE: No, I've got a good ally here now.

FERRELL: She, her - OK? Oh, yeah, yeah, sorry, sorry, sorry. So, I find myself - I'm like, almost - I almost get now irritable with it. So...

STEELE: Will doesn't get irritable much.

GROSS: So in the film, you both go to some places that you'd feel comfortable in, Harper, before your transition, but you were kind of afraid to go by yourself after transition.

STEELE: Yeah.

GROSS: And part of the concept of the movie is that you're going to do this road trip together, and together you will go to those uncomfortable places, so that you get a sense of, can I be here without being, like, targeted or humiliated and, you know, and just be myself? And it seems like, you know, judging from the movie, that the places you used to go to before transitioning were really the kind of, like, you know, bro, or really, like, you know, masculine, you know, like, hyper-male kind of places, like, you know, dive bars...

STEELE: Yup.

GROSS: ...And stock car races, truck stops. What attracted you to those kinds of places before transitioning?

STEELE: Well, they're beautiful places, wonderful places where all kinds of humanity, all kinds of Americans exist. And I love them now as much as I did then. I mean, yeah, I grew up in the Midwest. These are homes to me. These are my people.

GROSS: So what's it like going to those places recognizably as a woman? You're out.

STEELE: Well, it's always a little bit more fraught. And I don't know if it's because I'm a woman or if it's because I'm a trans woman. I can't quite discern that at this point. And I know when going to a car dealership, it's because I'm a woman (laughter). They don't talk to me the same way. They don't think I know anything about cars.

FERRELL: (Laughter).

STEELE: But no, I'm joking. It's...

GROSS: Maybe you're not.

STEELE: Yeah, no, I'm not joking about that. That's a real thing.

GROSS: Yeah.

STEELE: I'm just saying, yeah. But no, this all gets a little muddy for me because, one, everyone should know that when you cross the country with a camera crew and Will Ferrell, this is not a normal trans experience. And on top of it, I have a lot of privilege. And I have the ability to get in a car and get the heck out of places. So it's not a normal trans experience that I experienced. Now, I did go back and forth across the country twice since the film because I do that, and I like that. And, yeah, I have more confidence walking into these places. Now, certain places - and I assume you know this, Terry, being a woman - are not fun to go in at 11 o'clock at night, you know, alone as a woman. So I probably am more cautious now for sure.

GROSS: You mentioned that you were in a unique situation traveling with Will Ferrell, a very recognizable star of stage and screen.

STEELE: Yes.

FERRELL: Thank you. I appreciate the stage part. Yes.

STEELE: He's over there floating on air now.

FERRELL: I love it.

GROSS: But, you know, it's not only that you were there with Will Ferrell, it's also that there was a camera crew there with you.

STEELE: Yeah.

GROSS: And Will Ferrell would sometimes dress up in costumes, for instance, as Sherlock Holmes. So you were doing everything possible to call attention to yourselves, particularly Will Ferrell...

STEELE: Yeah.

GROSS: ...While at the same time trying to figure out what it would be like for you to go to these kinds of places. But it was such an unnatural way of doing that. And I'm wondering why you wanted to do it in that kind of way.

STEELE: Well, because the film is not really about a trans woman crossing the country by herself. It's about two friends and how they're navigating a friendship. So I was just looking at, this will be an interesting way to have a conversation about this subject with someone that I care about.

FERRELL: It was also a look inside to the way we like to entertain each other.

STEELE: Yeah.

FERRELL: And the way we would have done a road trip even without cameras. I would've brought my Sherlock Holmes costume...

STEELE: Oh, for sure. Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

FERRELL: ...To get my friend to laugh, as, you know, a callback to things we've done in the past. So it was also representative of that.

GROSS: Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guests are Will Ferrell and Harper Steele. Their new documentary, called "Will And Harper," is streaming on Netflix. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF ALLISON MILLER'S BOOM TIC BOOM'S "SHIMMER")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Will Ferrell and Harper Steele. They first met in 1995 when Will became a cast member of "SNL" and Harper became a writer on the show. They collaborated on sketches and became close friends. Their new documentary is about their road trip together after Harper came out as a trans woman in 2021.

One of the places you go - I mean, the place you go into in the movie with the Sherlock Holmes costume...

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: ...Is a steakhouse in Texas. And if I understand correctly, you get this, like - you see the plate of steak on camera. The steak is kind of overlapping the plate. It's so big.

FERRELL: Yes, 72 ounces of steak.

GROSS: Yeah, and you have, like, 60 minutes to eat it. And then they come and take away the plate.

FERRELL: Well, there's some fine print in there. You have to eat the steak and a baked potato, and two little weird fried shrimps and I think some broccoli.

STEELE: (Laughter).

FERRELL: So it's not just the steak. You've got to eat down all of that in 60 minutes.

GROSS: Anyway, I don't know why anybody would want to do that. But...

FERRELL: No, I agree.

STEELE: (Laughter).

FERRELL: Yeah, yeah.

GROSS: But you go there in the Sherlock Holmes - you know, with Will in the Sherlock Holmes costume, and things don't go well. Harper, would you describe what happened and your reaction to it?

STEELE: Well, this was a negative consequences of traveling around the country with Will Ferrell because the room sort of crowded in on us, a lot of photographs, a lot of cameras right in our faces, mainly Will's face. And I started to feel a little bit judged in the room. It's a feeling if you're trans when people are looking at you. And again, I don't know if everyone in that room was judging me the way that I felt. They might have been saying, I'm happy to see a trans person here in Amarillo. I can't say that for sure. But later, we do see a lot of tweets. Is that what they're still called? I don't know what they're called. But we see..

FERRELL: X's.

STEELE: X's. We see a lot of X's that people wrote about the experience and, yeah, what I felt was what was there.

GROSS: And, Will, you felt really guilty afterwards because it was an unpleasant experience for Harper. And you actually teared up.

FERRELL: Yeah. I felt kind of ashamed a little bit. This was just supposed to be a silly stop along our way and, you know, another piece of Americana. And I just carried a little bit of the guilt and the burden of, like, why did we even go in there? There was no need to. And I subjected my friend to, you know, this ridicule and scorn. We just didn't need to go there. And yet I think it's a powerful part of the film. So in hindsight, it turned out to be kind of valuable for me to feel that and to see that that kind of hate does exist out there, you know, for the trans community.

GROSS: So at one point, you go to a dirt track race, a kind of car race.

STEELE: Yeah.

GROSS: And on the way out, Harper, you say, I'm not afraid of these people. I'm afraid of hating myself. And then you tear up in the car as you're talking to Will. And, Will, I think, if I'm remembering correctly, what you do is, you know, kind of try to let Harper know that you understand and to try to comfort her. So, like, you rub her shoulder...

FERRELL: Yeah.

GROSS: ...As you sit next to each other in the car. And I was thinking - and this might be a strange question, and I hope it's not an inappropriate one. But I think it's often really awkward when a man and a woman, when one tries to comfort the other, when they're good friends and there's nothing sexual about the relationship.

STEELE: How do you know?

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: Well, I said it's an uncomfortable weird question, but, yes, exactly. But I mean...

STEELE: There isn't. There isn't, by the way.

GROSS: Yes. But when there is nothing sexual and you don't want to have the other person misinterpret it, even though you might want to hug them to console them, you may be uncomfortable doing it. So I'm wondering, you know, you each get a chance to tear up in the movie, and I'm wondering if you are kind of self-conscious about, how can I physically comfort the other person without either of us feeling uncomfortable or giving the wrong impression?

STEELE: Well, I think with any human, that's a navigation - you know, friends. I'm not talking about random hugging. I'm talking about friends, but Will has pointed out many times that before I transitioned, hugging was not in the equation.

FERRELL: Yeah. I would purposely...

STEELE: Will would hug me knowing that I would go stiff as a board and just hate it. And now I'm a hugger. So I will accept all hugs from good friends. Between men and women, between, you know, anyone, there's a camaraderie hug that can happen, and that's what I felt. I felt that arm on my shoulder, I'm sure, and I felt that it has meaning. It's touch. It's, I care about you. And that's - you know, that's wonderful.

FERRELL: Yeah, I don't know if this answers your question, Terry, but in that moment, I'm navigating it as well and trying - yeah, trying to comfort my friend. At the same time, if I had reached over - and I'm not saying you're suggesting this - but if I'd reached over and given her a bear hug and said, it's going to be OK. Like, that...

(LAUGHTER)

STEELE: Would have been fantastic...

FERRELL: Well, I guess it would've.

STEELE: ...And awful.

FERRELL: I know. And so I'm like, no, I need to let my friend feel this. I need to just be there and not say a word. It wasn't my place. And I think that pat on the shoulder is just, like, wow, buddy, we just experienced something here...

GROSS: Yeah.

FERRELL: ...And it was powerful.

GROSS: So another place you go to is a bar in Oklahoma that has a big Confederate flag on the wall and an F Biden banner, some tough-looking guys there. Why did you - did you know what you were getting into when you walked through that door?

FERRELL: (Laughter).

STEELE: No. No. I mean, I do like a good roadhouse, and - but I have a feeling that even before I transitioned that bar would be - you know, that would be a little bit outside of my parameters. Not that I didn't go into bars like that. It's just I'm not sure at this age, I would be looking for that bar regardless of who I might be.

GROSS: One of the things I thought was interesting about that is that there's a Confederate flag on the wall and like, oh, no.

STEELE: Yeah.

GROSS: But there's, like, two Native Americans who come up and sing for you, and they sounded great.

STEELE: That was amazing.

FERRELL: Yeah, that was incredible.

GROSS: And it's just like it's not what you expected. It's not what I expected, certainly. And...

STEELE: Well, that's a trans experience. I mean, a lot of things - because the reason why someone my age doesn't transition is there's a lot of fear and projection of sort of the consequences. And so when you go into a place like that, it's sort of playing out that fear, and what are the consequences of this going to be? And quite often you're wrong. Yeah, your expectations are wrong. And so for me, it's been very joyful, but I hate to make it sound like that's everyone's experience because many trans people face a lot of violence in this world. And so yeah, there's still fear out there for us, but Yeah, I projected more fear than probably necessary.

GROSS: We have to take another short break here. If you're just joining us, my guests are Will Ferrell and Harper Steele. Their new documentary called "Will And Harper" is streaming on Netflix. We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "HARPER AND WILL GO WEST")

KRISTEN WIIG: (Singing) Harper and Will go west - just a couple old friends and a couple brand-new breasts. They're off to see America, not sure what they'll find, open to the open road, don't need to be reminded that a friend is a friend is a friend till the end. Coast to coast - it takes 3,000 miles to get this close. Did Lewis and Clark dare to go to these emotional places?

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Will Ferrell and Harper Steele. They met in 1995, when they each started working at "Saturday Night Live" - Will as a cast member, Harper as a writer. About three years ago, Harper started to tell friends, including Will, she was transitioning to female. The new film "Will & Harper" follows them on their cross-country road trip, stopping in places like a dirt track race, a dive bar, places where Harper would have felt comfortable before transitioning, but would be afraid to go to alone as a trans woman. The film is also about Will and Harper getting to know each other in a new way now that Harper had come out.

Harper, when you decided that you were just going to do it and transition, what kind of woman did you want to be just in terms of how you wanted to look? And, you know, there's such a broad range of what it is to be a woman. You know, there's women who are very kinid of what would be described as feminine and women who are very what would be described as masculine. And it's a huge scale of visual styles, of voices, of ways of being in the world.

STEELE: That's a very strange question to me because I came out as me. I don't know what that means in terms of what it means to be a certain kind of woman. I am a woman. I came out. I acknowledge that. Again, it overpowered me the way it was supposed to 'cause nature wins. And I am female. I look at fashion and I look at clothing, and I go, wow, I want that, or I want that. But I don't look at types of women and say, I want to be that type of woman. I mean, we all like cool people. But, no, that never entered my mind. In fact, the question to me is a little - it's not a dated question. I'm not accusing you of that. The question to me is just so foreign to me because I didn't have, like, a mapping of femininity for me. I just was feeling who I am. And I'm still that person.

GROSS: I'm sorry if the question was offensive, but I'm kind of glad I asked it 'cause your answer was so good. And I think it's a very...

STEELE: Oh, no. It wasn't an offensive...

GROSS: ...Informative answer.

STEELE: ...Question. No. I hope I didn't make it sound like it was an offensive question. It's just I'm sure other trans people might want to answer that differently, so - and we are not a monolith, for sure, so...

GROSS: Yeah.

STEELE: But that's how I answered.

GROSS: You know, some people after transitioning want to change their voice, you know, in terms of...

STEELE: You bet. Yeah.

GROSS: ...Transitioning to female, you know, trying to get their voice into a higher range, a range...

STEELE: Yeah.

GROSS: ...More associated with females. But I think you say in the movie, unless I'm confusing with what somebody else says to you, that you don't want to change your voice, that it's your voice.

STEELE: Well, a very intelligent trans woman we meet along the way, Dana Garber, who says - tells us a story about trying to change your voice, which I definitely would have thought of and sort of thought about. But I think it's important for me to tell people that I am first a human being and second a trans person and third a woman. So I'm not that overly concerned about passing. I like being gendered correctly. I do. But passing is something that a lot of trans people want and need and should have if that's what they want. But for me, it's not as important. I would love to be prettier, but I'm not sure I'm different than a lot of women in the world. And I wish I had been born with a different voice. But this is who I am. But these things are fluid, too, Terry, I could tomorrow start voice lessons. I doubt I will, but who knows? Your gender is a slippery thing for some people, and I'm happy about that.

FERRELL: And that talk with Dana, where she says...

STEELE: Yeah.

FERRELL: ...She went down that road of voice lessons, and then she stopped herself and said, who am I doing this for?

STEELE: Yeah.

FERRELL: Am I doing it for me, or am I doing it for someone else?

STEELE: Yeah.

FERRELL: And she said, this is my voice.

STEELE: Yeah.

GROSS: You also say, Harper, that the more makeup you wear, the worse you feel about your face, and you say the, quote, "prettier" I get, the more I see my flaws. It's...

STEELE: Yeah.

GROSS: ...Making me self-aware of my very masculine face.

STEELE: Yeah.

GROSS: So where has that left you in terms of, you know, wearing makeup or not? And how much...

STEELE: I love makeup.

GROSS: ...Do you want to care about your face?

STEELE: No, I love makeup. I'm just not a perfect at it yet. And, again, what human is not fluid in the way that they see themselves? What human is not, like, always maybe working on to look better, to lose weight, to feel better about their bodies and feel better about themselves? That's - I'm on a similar trajectory. Transitioning does make it a little more - I don't know - hyper-aware of how you're wanting to look and how you want to be in the world. But, yeah, I mean, dysphoria is real. I was unfortunately born - you know, was assigned male at birth. And so, yeah, I've had to deal with that. But it's true. But you don't know how many - Terry, you know how many women have walked up to me and said, oh, yeah, that's exactly how I feel.

GROSS: You know what I think? I think that the whole body positivity movement has not acknowledged faces.

FERRELL: Oh, yeah.

GROSS: Faces are totally not about body positivity. People have plastic surgery. You have to undergo the knife to feel like you have an acceptable face. Aging is not something you're supposed to show on your face. Wrinkles are taboo. If you can afford it, that's what people do. And I wonder if you have any thoughts about that, about body positivity not encompassing faces, especially aging faces.

STEELE: Hollywood and the business that I work in - we value faces. Somehow Will Ferrell slipped through.

GROSS: (Laughter).

FERRELL: Somehow.

STEELE: Somehow. But we do...

FERRELL: But I'm going to get some work done...

STEELE: OK, good.

FERRELL: ...After this.

STEELE: Good. Yeah.

FERRELL: I just made up my mind.

STEELE: Through pressure.

FERRELL: I just made up my mind right now.

STEELE: We value faces. And so I like the middle of the country because it's me. There's people out there, like, real people.

GROSS: Will, do you have any thoughts about that as you get older?

FERRELL: Well, men are lucky in that, you know...

STEELE: You can be ugly.

FERRELL: ...You - we can be ugly. We can be ugly. And we can look distinguished...

STEELE: Yeah. That's true.

FERRELL: ...All of a sudden...

STEELE: Yeah.

FERRELL: ...You know?

STEELE: That's true.

FERRELL: But, no, I - you know, it's funny. I'm in comedy, so it's not critical for me to worry about that. But it's not my nature anyway. And, in fact, I I remember giving - doing a Q&A somewhere and one of the questions from the audience was, why are your eyebrows so white?

STEELE: (Laughter).

FERRELL: I said, because I have gray hair. It's called the aging process.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: All right. It's time for another break. Let me reintroduce you. My guests are Will Ferrell and Harper Steele. Their new documentary called "Will And Harper" is streaming on Netflix. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF HOWARD FISHMAN'S "DIRTY")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Will Ferrell and Harper Steele. They met in 1995 when they each started working at "SNL." Their new documentary, "Will And Harper," is about getting to know each other in a new way after Harper came out as a trans woman. The film follows them on their cross-country road trip, stopping in places Harper would have felt comfortable before transitioning, but would be afraid to go to alone now. Just a heads-up that the next part of our interview will include a brief discussion about suicidal thinking. If you are having thoughts about suicide, help is available by dialing or texting 988 to reach the Suicide and Crisis Hotline. That's 988. You can call or text.

Harper, there's a part of the film where you talk about having had suicidal thoughts before transitioning, and you even went to a gun store, and you scared yourself. And you realized you couldn't buy a gun, and you couldn't even be around guns because it would be too dangerous for you. Have those thoughts ever come back since transitioning? We all have bad days, but have your bad days never been as bad?

STEELE: No, I'm not close to that place in my life. I've had not really - honestly, I've had nothing but good days for probably two years solid. But I think maybe a year after transition, I had a week where I was - it's very common, I think, for a lot of trans people, but I was just, like, scared about what I had done. And it passed very quickly, and I really have not had any bad days.

GROSS: You went through a period of hiding to the extent that you could - you even bought a home, and you bought it as a place to hide in, a place where you could dress...

STEELE: Yup.

GROSS: ...As the woman you felt you were without people noticing and without anybody knowing you.

STEELE: (Laughter).

GROSS: But what actually happened once you moved there?

STEELE: It was a great place to disappear too, but yes, I wasn't around anyone I knew. These are the people I'm most afraid of, the people I know. And so if I could reintroduce myself to this whole neighborhood as - you know, I'm thinking in my head, the weird person up in the house up there, maybe I could start over in a place like that.

GROSS: You said the people you were most afraid of or the people you knew, Why were those the people who you were most afraid of?

STEELE: Because these are the people who like or love you and you don't want to lose that. That's - I think probably with a lot of trans people, family members, friends - that's where a lot of the fear comes in.

GROSS: Did that actually happen after you transition?

STEELE: No. No. No, it didn't. No. I was - I - to me, it's laughable. It's laughable because I was afraid to come out in a community mainly of entertainment people, which to me is - it's - I can laugh about it. I do laugh about it, but it's like that's - yeah, I guess that's the power of some sort of repression.

GROSS: It's interesting - there's a scene in which you and Will are at a restaurant with your two children, Harper.

STEELE: Yeah.

GROSS: And they seem like, what's the big deal? You know, our father transitioned, but we get it.

STEELE: I love that. I love that that's what - you know, one of my children - they live in Brooklyn with another trans person as we speak. And I just think that they just - the mental sort of gymnastics that older people go through it is not part of their world at all, and I think that's a better world. I love it.

GROSS: Were your parents alive when you transitioned?

STEELE: They were not. They were not. They passed about a year before I transitioned.

GROSS: Did that make it easier for you to transition?

STEELE: It's hard to say. My parents - their biggest concern was always, am I going to be OK? Am I going to make money? Am I going to be able to live in the world? So I'm going to guess that they would have been surprised and then been like, OK, so you still have a job?

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: Why were they so - I mean, did they think you were too odd or anything to be able to, like, make a living?

STEELE: Oh, yeah. No, I spent my 20s not making - purposely not making a living.

GROSS: What were you doing?

STEELE: Hitchhiking, going places. I don't know. I was yeah, I was all over the country. I mean, making - yeah, doing nothing.

GROSS: Do you miss that? I know you don't...

STEELE: Yeah, that's...

GROSS: ...Miss being a man, but do you miss having the freedom?

STEELE: Oh, no, that's exactly what I miss. I miss being in my country. It's my country. It's not to be taken away from me. It's not to be abused by other people. It's my country as much as it is anyone else's. And I like being there. I like being all over it. I like the people I meet. And so, yeah, I don't miss anything because I'm still doing it.

GROSS: I just said, do you miss being a man? I suppose I should have said do you miss passing as a man?

STEELE: Yeah. Yeah.

GROSS: What would be the best way for me to put it?

STEELE: Yeah, passing as a man. Thank you. Do I miss it? No, I literally do not miss it one bit. You know, every once in a while, the question of privilege comes up and spaces where male privilege works better, lumber yards and car dealerships. But I've gained so much connecting to sort of the feminine world in my estimation. I've gained so much the idea of missing it is - no - would be crazy.

GROSS: Will, how do you think you were changed by the experience of this road trip?

FERRELL: You know, you get an email from a friend announcing this kind of dramatic news, and I didn't really stop to think how much pain, how much anguish there was to get to that point, how much thought it took to write that email. And, yeah, just Harper and I going around, visiting her, you know, sister in Iowa, you know, the part where she's looking through photographs and uncovering the story that this was something that obviously was a part of her this whole time, and the sadness of her kind of putting it aside, kind of squashing it down. But then the courage that it took to get to that point where she was like, enough, I'm going to give up the fight. And, yeah, I just learned how incredibly strong she is, how articulate she is. She's always made me laugh. And I knew she's a smart person, but...

STEELE: (Laughter).

FERRELL: But not that smart, no way.

(LAUGHTER)

FERRELL: But we'd have these conversations...

STEELE: Got it. It's on tape now.

FERRELL: Yeah, it's on tape. It's on tape. And a lot of people have come up to us just saying, it's just nice to see friends stick up for each other. I think that's what we're most proud of about this whole thing.

STEELE: Yeah, yeah, and making Will laugh. If I can make Will laugh, then job well done.

GROSS: It's been great to talk to you both. Congratulations on the movie. And thank you so much.

STEELE: Oh, thank you.

FERRELL: Thanks, Terry. Thank you.

STEELE: Thank you.

GROSS: Will Ferrell and Harper Steele's new movie, "Will And Harper," about their road trip together and their friendship is streaming on Netflix. After we take a short break, classical music critic Lloyd Schwartz will review new recordings of music by Charles Ives. October 20 marks the 150th anniversary of his birth. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF WILLIE MITCHELL'S "20-75")

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. This year marks the 150th birthday of Charles Ives. Many music lovers consider him the first truly great American composer, although some of them are bewildered by his untraditional methods. FRESH AIR's classical music critic Lloyd Schwartz thinks that there are many reasons to celebrate Ives, including a new recording by pianist Donald Berman that Lloyd thinks is a major addition to the Ives discography.

(SOUNDBITE OF DONALD BERMAN'S PERFORMANCE OF IVES' "PIANO SONATA NO. 2, 'CONCORD, MASS., 1840-1860': I. EMERSON")

LLOYD SCHWARTZ, BYLINE: The word that comes up in almost any discussion of Charles Ives is maverick. A Connecticut insurance actuary during working hours and a daringly inventive composer in his spare time. Or is it the other way around? He's still a mystery 150 years after his birth. He's both admired and attacked for his avant-garde atonality, the elimination of bar lines in his scores and his eccentric, often overlapping musical quotations of classical music, parlor and political songs, marches and hymn tunes.

SCHWARTZ: One of Ives' most challenging works is his nearly hourlong "Concord" sonata, which was first published in 1919 but didn't have its world premiere until his friend and editor, the legendary pianist John Kirkpatrick, played it in 1939. Kirkpatrick made landmark recordings of both that original version and an extensively revised later version. Now pianist Donald Berman, a student of Kirkpatrick's and president of the Ives Society, has released an impressive new recording that incorporates changes Ives made even after his later revision. Ives never stopped revising. He considered his scores more of a blueprint for performers than strict instructions.

(SOUNDBITE OF DONALD BERMAN PERFORMANCE OF IVES' "PIANO SONATA NO. 2, 'CONCORD, MASS., 1840-1860': I. EMERSON")

SCHWARTZ: The "Concord Sonata" gets its name from the American Transcendentalists, the great 19th century writers, intellectuals and abolitionists Ives admired who lived in Concord, Mass. The four movements are massive musical portraits of the figures for whom they are named. The first and biggest movement is "Emerson" - solemn, jagged, tonally unpredictable. The second movement, "Hawthorne," is just the opposite - fanciful, inventive and mesmerizing, the sound image of a great storyteller.

(SOUNDBITE OF DONALD BERMAN PERFORMANCE OF IVES' "PIANO SONATA NO. 2, 'CONCORD, MASS., 1840-1860': II. HAWTHORNE")

SCHWARTZ: The third movement, "The Alcotts," refers to teacher, philosopher, abolitionist and environmentalist Bronson Alcott and his more famous daughter, Louisa May. In the sonata, they are homebodies intimately sitting around the piano.

(SOUNDBITE OF DONALD BERMAN PERFORMANCE OF IVES' "PIANO SONATA NO. 2, 'CONCORD, MASS., 1840-1860': III. THE ALCOTTS")

SCHWARTZ: Suddenly, that quiet tune explodes into a quotation of the Beethoven Fifth Symphony.

(SOUNDBITE OF DONALD BERMAN PERFORMANCE OF IVES' "PIANO SONATA NO. 2, 'CONCORD, MASS., 1840-1860': III. THE ALCOTTS")

SCHWARTZ: One of my favorite tracks on this Ives disc is a short piece called "The St. Gaudens ('Black March')." It was inspired by the heroic bas relief on the edge of the Boston Common by Augustus St. Gardens, the sculptor's tribute to young Colonel Robert Gould Shaw and his troop of Black soldiers. They are on their way to the bloody Civil War battle at Fort Wagner, S.C., where most of them would lose their lives.

This magnificent public monument was also the subject of Robert Lowell's great poem "For The Union Dead." You can hear the tread of the soldiers marching to their deaths. In Donald Berman's performance, that sound makes a poignant prelude to the more abstract complexities of the "Concord Sonata."

(SOUNDBITE OF DONALD BERMAN PERFORMANCE OF IVES' "THE ST. GAUDENS ('BLACK MARCH')")

SCHWARTZ: Ives may be the most truly American of the great American composers. His music is so unashamedly and genuinely innocent, and at the same time, so completely subversive.

GROSS: Lloyd Schwartz reviewed Donald Berman's recording of Charles Ives' "The St. Gaudens" and the "Concord Sonata." Lloyd's latest book is "Who's On First? New And Selected Poems." It's published by the University of Chicago Press.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "HAPPY")

PHARRELL WILLIAMS: (Singing) It might seem crazy what I'm about to say.

GROSS: Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be Grammy-winning songwriter, performer and producer Pharrell Williams. The new film "Piece By Piece" is an animated Pharrell biopic made entirely of Legos. It covers his childhood in Virginia Beach, his collaborations with artists like Jay-Z, Snoop Dogg, Britney Spears and Beyonce and his synesthesia - seeing color when he hears music. I hope you'll join us. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "HAPPY")

WILLIAMS: (Singing) Clap along if you feel like happiness is the truth because I'm happy. Clap along if you know what happiness is to you because I'm happy. Clap along if you feel...

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