Michael Beschloss: Tales Of The LBJ Tapes

DATE August 19, 2008 ACCOUNT NUMBER N/A
TIME 12:00 Noon-1:00 PM
NETWORK NPR
PROGRAM Fresh Air

Interview: Michael Beschloss discusses President Lyndon Johnson's
secret recordings made in the White House in the mid-'60s
TERRY GROSS, host:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

With the conventions coming up, we're going to be featuring a lot of political
interviews in the next three weeks. This week, we're focusing on interviews
from our archive about presidential history and politics. Today we're going
to listen to some of the tapes that President Lyndon Johnson secretly recorded
of his conversations with aides and officials, including tapes that reveal his
fears about the escalating war in Vietnam.

(Soundbite of audiotape)

President LYNDON JOHNSON: The psychological impact of "The Marines are
coming" is going to be a bad one. And I know enough to know that, and I know
that every mother's going to say, `Huh-uh. This is it.' And I know it. What
we've done with these B-57s is just going to be Sunday school stuff compared
to the Marines, and all they're going to do is be a policeman. And damned if
I don't know why we can't find some kind of policeman besides a Marine,
because a Marine is a guy that's got a dagger in his hand and is going to put
the flag up.

(End of soundbite)

GROSS: That's LBJ speaking to his Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara in
March 1965. Ever since Watergate, American presidents have known that if they
taped their conversations, the tapes could be used against them. LBJ left a
remarkable behind-the-scenes history of his presidency through the
conversations, mostly phone calls, that he recorded on his hidden tape system.
The system was intended to give Johnson a reliable record that could be used
in his daily business.

I spoke with presidential historian Michael Beschloss in November 2001 after
he completed the second volume in his trilogy of Johnson's edited tapes. This
volume is called "Reaching for Glory" and it covers the years 1964 to '65.

Michael Beschloss, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Give us an overview of the
period covered in the second volume of your book on the LBJ tapes.

Mr. MICHAEL BESCHLOSS: Well, this is 1964 and 1965, and it was action-packed
because it begins in the fall of 1964, where Lyndon Johnson was running
against Barry Goldwater to become president in his own right; then the second
he's elected, he's dealing with Vietnam, civil rights, riots in the street and
also the Great Society--Medicare and all those other programs. So you see a
president dealing with all these things almost at once.

GROSS: Let's start with a conversation between LBJ and Jacqueline Kennedy
from December of 1963. At this point she's still living in the Executive
Mansion with her children. Set the context for this.

Mr. BESCHLOSS: Well, this is right after John Kennedy's assassination, and
Mrs. Kennedy, as you might imagine--you'll hear on the tape--is absolutely
distraught. Her voice is almost otherworldly. She's not sleeping. She's,
needless to say, terribly depressed. And Johnson calls her up, and on one
level Johnson is being wonderful because he almost flirts with her. He's
trying to make her feel better. But at the same time, as always with Johnson,
he's got a political motive, and the political motive is he felt illegitimate
as president. He had suddenly come in after John Kennedy was assassinated in
his home state, and Johnson felt that the best thing he could do for himself
politically was to keep Jackie Kennedy as close to him as possible. So he
keeps on calling her up, making her feel better, but also asking her after she
leaves the White House to come back, be photographed with him. He even says
that he wants John and Caroline to be his surrogate children, and she recoils
from this.

GROSS: Well, let's hear one of the early conversations in this series. This
is from December 2nd of 1963.

(Soundbite of audiotape)

Ms. JACQUELINE KENNEDY: Mr. President?

Pres. JOHNSON: I just wanted you to know you are loved by so many, and so
much...

Ms. KENNEDY: Oh, Mr. President...

Pres. JOHNSON: ...and I'm one of them.

Ms. KENNEDY: ...I tried. I didn't dare bother you again, but I got Timmy
O'Donnell over here to give you a message if he ever saw you. Did he give it
to you yet?

Pres. JOHNSON: No.

Ms. KENNEDY: About my letter...

Pres. JOHNSON: No.

Ms. KENNEDY: ...that was waiting for me last night.

Pres. JOHNSON: Listen, sweetie, now first thing you gotta learn--you got
some things to learn, and one of them is that you don't bother me. You give
me strength and...

Ms. KENNEDY: But I wasn't going to send you in one more letter. And I was
just scared you'd answer it.

Pres. JOHNSON: Don't send me anything. Don't send me anything. You just
come over and put your arm around me. That's all you do. When you haven't
got anything else to do, let's take a walk. Let's walk around the back yard
and just let me tell you how much that you mean to all of us and how we can
carry on if you give us a little strength.

Ms. KENNEDY: But you know what I wanted to say to you about that letter? I
know how rare a letter is in a president's handwriting. Do you know that I've
got more in your handwriting than I do in Jack's now?

Pres. JOHNSON: My mother and my wife and my sisters and you females got a
lot of courage that we men don't have. And so we have to rely on you and
depend on you, and you got something to do.

(Soundbite of sob)

Pres. JOHNSON: You got the president relying on you. And this is not the
first thing you had, so there are not many women you know running around with
a good many presidents. So you just bear that in mind.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Pres. JOHNSON: You got the biggest job of your life.

Ms. KENNEDY: `She ran around with two presidents.' That's what they'll say
about me.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Ms. KENNEDY: OK. Any time.

(Soundbite of kissing noises)

(End of soundbite)

GROSS: Jackie Kennedy sounds to be alternating between crying and laughing in
that conversation.

Mr. BESCHLOSS: Yes, and you could even hear Johnson making those kiss sounds
at the end, and that's what she was feeling, because, you know, she was
devastated. Her husband had been murdered in her arms in Dallas, and at the
same time, she appreciated the fact that LBJ was trying to buck her up. And
they had had a pretty good relationship when Lyndon Johnson was vice
president. Johnson said, `She was the only one in the Kennedy White House who
treated me like a human being.'

GROSS: Now later, Johnson offers her an ambassadorship, which she declines.
Why did he want to give her one? Why did she decline?

Mr. BESCHLOSS: He kept on worrying that she was going to be turned against
Johnson by her brother-in-law Robert Kennedy, whom she adored, and he was
absolutely right in worrying about this because during the time that that tape
we just heard was made, RFK was saying to Jackie, `He's going to use you. Be
careful. Don't get taken in.' And so Johnson felt that the way to keep her on
the reservation would be to give her a job in the administration, perhaps
ambassador to Mexico or ambassador to France. Both of these she turned down.

GROSS: Now in your new collection of LBJ tapes, you also deal with some of
the scandals or potential scandals, sex scandals of his administration. And
one of them has to do with somebody in the administration who is gay and
closeted. He's discovered. And this is for the time, 1964, a potentially
really explosive scandal. The person in question was Walter Jenkins. Who was
he and what was he alleged to have done?

Mr. BESCHLOSS: Well, it's a pretty amazing part of the book. Walter Jenkins
was Lyndon Johnson's closest aide in the White House, had worked for him since
1939, was a devout Catholic, had six children; but as you say, at the same
time, had another life that was secret. He was a closeted gay, and this was
1964; it was something he was very ashamed of. And the result was that in
mid-October of 1964, just a few weeks before the election, Jenkins was at a
party in Washington that was given for the opening of new offices for Newsweek
magazine. Jenkins got drunk. He went over to the YMCA a few blocks away,
which was at that point a well-known place where gay people could meet. And
he was arrested while having sex with another man in the men's room
downstairs. He was hauled into the police station, paid his fine, and
amazingly enough, he went back to the White House and began working again;
didn't tell anyone what had happened, and that did not become known.

About a week later, there was a Republican operative who discovered this, gave
the word to various newspapers and then; what happened was Lyndon Johnson
himself was notified that, to his shock, his closest aide not only had been
arrested, but arrested just a couple of weeks before the election. So since
Johnson was worried that Goldwater could only win by pinning on him a charge
of immorality, Johnson thought he was suddenly vulnerable, because in those
times people might have charged that here was someone very close to the
president who might have been compromised.

GROSS: So I'd like to play a conversation that LBJ had with Billy Graham on
October 20th of 1964. And this is while LBJ is still reeling from this
potential scandal, and there's a lot of other problems that he's having. What
are the other problems?

Mr. BESCHLOSS: He's trying to deal with, needless to say, beating Barry
Goldwater; but the other part of it is that Jenkins, at this point, has been
hospitalized and the scandal has somewhat passed, but he's worried that there
will be other scandals. He's heard that the Republicans are looking for other
people in his midst who either might be gay or have marital problems, or that
they might be able to pin something on LBJ.

GROSS: So here's LBJ and Billy Graham in a phone conversation in October
20th, 1964.

(Soundbite of audiotape)

Pres. JOHNSON: Hello, Billy. How are you, my friend?

Reverend BILLY GRAHAM: Well, God bless you. I was telling Bill that last
night I couldn't sleep. And I got on my knees and prayed for you that the
Lord will just give you strength.

Pres. JOHNSON: I told my sweet wife last night--we got mental telepathy. I
said, `If I didn't think I'd embarrass him, I'd say, "Please, dear Lord, I
need you more than I ever did in my life. I've got the Russians on one side
of me taking...(unintelligible)...the Chinese are dropping bombs around,
contaminating the atmosphere, and the best man I ever knew had a stroke and
then disease hit him, and I've been tied in here with my cabinet all day." And
I'd have him--just make him come down and spend Sunday with me.'

Rev. GRAHAM: Well, bless your heart. I'll be glad to. I told Bill that
there were two things. One was I just felt terribly impressed to tell you to
slow down a little bit. I've been awfully worried about you physically.

Pres. JOHNSON: Well...

Rev. GRAHAM: And then the second thing--you've got this election, in my
opinion, wrapped up. And you've got it wrapped up big. There's no doubt in
my mind about that. You know, when Jesus dealt with people with moral
problems like dear Walter had--and I was telling Bill, I wanted to send my
love and sympathy to him...

Pres. JOHNSON: Thank you.

Rev. GRAHAM: ...he always dealt tenderly, always.

Pres. JOHNSON: Yep.

Rev. GRAHAM: Because I know the weaknesses of men. And the Bible says we're
all sinners, and we all are involved one way or another. And I just hope if
you have any contact with him, you'll just give him my love and understanding.

Pres. JOHNSON: That'll mean more than anything. Come around here Saturday
evening and have dinner with us and let's have a quiet visit, and maybe have a
little service Sunday morning in the White House at 7.

(End of soundbite)

GROSS: A very interesting conversation; Billy Graham and LBJ in 1964. My
guest, Michael Beschloss, is a presidential historian. His new book is volume
two of LBJ tapes. It's called "Reaching For Glory."

What ever did happen with the Walter Jenkins story? What kind of impact did
it have on LBJ? How was it resolved?

Mr. BESCHLOSS: Turned out to have no effect on the campaign because Johnson
was very lucky. Within 48 hours after the revelation, a number of things
happened to take the news away. There was an ouster of the British
government, an ouster of the Soviet government of Nikita Khrushchev. The
World Series was on. Plus, the Chinese fired off their first atomic weapon.

The other thing was that Johnson was able to get the campaign away from this
question of morality. And one way he did it, we've just heard, is by inviting
Billy Graham to the White House, which he was not doing just because he wanted
a little bit of moral advice. He knew that was going to be very helpful for a
president who was under the attack of people saying that `You're immoral,' to
have Billy Graham, the best-known evangelist in the United States, staying in
the White House and, essentially, giving his blessing to President Johnson.

GROSS: Yeah, but at the same time, there's this story breaking that, you
know, Walter Jenkins, a close aide to LBJ, had a homosexual relationship.
There's rumors that the Republicans are going to start spreading photos of LBJ
in a compromising position with a woman who wasn't his wife. What happened
with that?

Mr. BESCHLOSS: That was one of the worries that Johnson had. Just about two
weeks before the election, George Reedy, his press secretary, walked in and
said, `There's a rumor that there's a photograph of you in a compromising
position with this woman who lives in Louisiana and who does not live the
proper sort of life.' That's my language and not his. And Johnson was
terrified that something like this might happen just before the election; an
October surprise that would hand the election to Goldwater.

GROSS: Did that ever happen?

Mr. BESCHLOSS: It didn't happen, but what you hear and read in the book,
these conversations, you know, the last few days before the election, Johnson
was terrified that it would. He was on the telephone all the time to

J. Edgar Hoover saying, `Make sure this does not happen and cause my defeat.'

GROSS: Well, speaking of Hoover, you include a tape with J. Edgar Hoover.
And I think at this point LBJ is worried that somebody else in his cabinet is
going to be exposed as gay. And Hoover and LBJ are having a talk about,
`Well, how do you know if somebody's gay or not? How can you spot 'em?' Did
you want to say anything else about this conversation before we hear it?

Mr. BESCHLOSS: This is Johnson. You know, he always operated at about 10
different levels. And in the one we're about to hear, the top level is he's
just asking his FBI director, you know, how you spot a secret homosexual in
your entourage, which, in those horrible, prehistoric times, would have been
politically damaging. But at the same time, Johnson knows privately of the
rumors that Hoover himself is gay, so, in a way, he's sort of playing with him
by saying to Hoover, `Tell me. How do you spot a secret homosexual?'

GROSS: OK. Let's hear the conversation. LBJ and J. Edgar Hoover, head of
the FBI, recorded on October 31st, 1964.

(Soundbite of audiotape)

Mr. J. EDGAR HOOVER: Now we took over that investigation yesterday.

Pres. JOHNSON: Yeah.

Mr. HOOVER: They said that this particular man had been under surveillance
and that they were going to explode this bomb today. Now the only person I
know of who's been under surveillance by any agency has been this man over in
the Navy Department.

Pres. JOHNSON: No. I read that. What they said was--that they raised the
question--the way he combed his hair, the way he did something else, but they
had no act of his or he had done nothing.

Mr. HOOVER: Exactly. Well, just the suspicion that his mannerisms and so
forth were such that they were suspicious.

Pres. JOHNSON: Yeah, he worked for me for four or five years, but he wasn't
even suspicious to me, but I guess you're going to have to teach me something
about this stuff.

Mr. HOOVER: Well, you know, I often wonder what the next crisis is going to
be.

Pres. JOHNSON: I'll swear, I can't recognize them. I don't know anything
about it.

Mr. HOOVER: It's a thing that you just can't tell. Sometimes, just like in
the case of this...(unintelligible)...

Pres. JOHNSON: Yeah.

Mr. HOOVER: ...there's no indication in any way.

Pres. JOHNSON: No.

Mr. HOOVER: And I knew him pretty well and Deloche did also and there was no
suspicion, no indication. There are some people who walk kind of funny and so
forth that you might kind of think are a little bit off or maybe queer.

(End of soundbite)

GROSS: What is the historic value of listening back to that, Michael
Beschloss; of hearing the head of the FBI and the president of the United
States speculating on how can you tell, as Hoover put it, `if somebody's
queer.'

Mr. BESCHLOSS: Well, one thing is to show how far we have come from those
times. And it's a good thing, too. The other thing is it shows the way that
business was oftentimes done by presidents in those days, which was if you've
got a problem, if a scandal threatens you, you call the FBI and quash it.

GROSS: My guest is presidential historian Michael Beschloss. We'll talk more
about editing LBJ's secret White House tapes after a break. This is FRESH
AIR.

(Announcements)

GROSS: My guest is presidential historian Michael Beschloss. He edited a
trilogy of President Lyndon Johnson's secret White House tapes. Our interview
was recorded after the publication of the second volume, "Reaching For Glory,"
covering the years 1964 to '65.

One of the things LBJ was known for was having a big ego, an ego that was
sometimes bruised, and I think we can hear what that was like in a
conversation that he had with his adviser Edwin Wiesl, after LBJ won the
election against Barry Goldwater, and winning wasn't enough. He was
complaining that the TV commentators were saying that he only won because
people saw him as the lesser of two evils. What should we listen for in this
tape?

Mr. BESCHLOSS: Well, you know, Terry, when I was listening to these tapes
and putting them in the book, you know, I told my wife, you know, `I'm
learning so much about Johnson, but I'm learning a lot about life, too.' And
one of the things I learned about life was that in Lyndon Johnson's case, this
was a guy who had an awful lot to be thankful for: a wife who loved him,
children, friends. He was president of the United States, which he had always
wanted to do, but it was never enough. He was always unhappy. Rather than
saying, `Let me enjoy the blessing I've got,' he was always looking for the
enemy around the door or the danger behind the curtain. And the result was he
never allowed himself to enjoy himself. And the moment that really brought it
home to me was election night 1964. He's elected by just about the largest
landslide in history, and I said to myself, `Aha, I'll finally hear this guy
actually happy.'

And you listen to him election night, and the first half of the night, he's
complaining that Robert Kennedy, who was just elected senator from New York,
had not thanked him enough in his acceptance speech, and the second half of
the night, he's complaining that the TV commentators are saying this was just
an anti-Goldwater election, not a pro-Johnson victory. And so in the tape
that we're about to hear, you hear him complaining to this close lawyer friend
of his, Ed Wiesl, that, `We've got to do something about that.'

GROSS: Well, let's hear the tape, recorded in November of 1964.

(Soundbite of audiotape)

Pres. JOHNSON: We don't have any propaganda machine and we don't have
anybody can get out our stuff. Now Ray Mullah started this story that they're
just voting against Goldwater and they didn't like either one of us and that
Johnson didn't have any rapport and he didn't have any style, and he was a
buffoon and he was full of corn; and every place I went in this campaign--and
I went to 49 states with Lady Bird and the two girls, I was 44 myself--I had
the biggest crowd they'd ever had before and I got the biggest vote anybody
ever got before and I had the greatest affection that's ever been demonstrated
before and the greatest loyalty and more big businessmen and more labor men
and more Negroes and more Jews and more ethnic groups, more everybody. But
they say, `Oh, that doesn't amount to anything.'

So the Bobby Kennedy group, they kind of put out this stuff and the little
Kennedy folks around--yeah, nobody loves Johnson. And they're going to have
it built up by January that I didn't get any mandate at all, that I was just
the lesser of two evils and people didn't care. And I think that you've got
to point out that Dick Daley says that he figured we'd run 750,000 in Chicago,
and now we're going to run 850 to nine. And we saved the governor and we'll
run over a million in the state. It's the greatest candidate that he's ever
seen, "the greatest political candidate," and I think you've got to quote him
because that's what he told me a dozen times.

I had twice the crowd Eisenhower ever had. Now they wrote about Eisenhower
for eight years, but they've never written one word about us. And they've got
to say something about the auditorium in Austin, Texas, being filled at 2:30
in the morning just waiting to see me, the people that knew me best, and that
they voted for me six and eight to one in my home boxes is that Miller was
losing, and the love and the affection they had for 30 years. And all they
write about is not love and affection. They write, `Well, the lesser of two
evils, cornpone, Southern.'

Now let's get busy on this, Eddie, before they ruin us and make a Harding out
of us. We've got to be thinking what we can do about this attorney general
now. We've got to get the ablest, strongest, finest, most respectable man
that we can get because they want to make a bunch of crooks out of us.

(End of soundbite)

GROSS: Well, it sounds like he not only wants to win, he cares about his
image.

Mr. BESCHLOSS: Not only cares about his image; you know, if you heard this,
Terry, and you didn't know what this was, you'd think this was the talk of
someone who'd just lost the election.

GROSS: Right.

Mr. BESCHLOSS: He's angry, he's upset, he's suspicious. This is just after
he's gotten the biggest landslide in modern times, and he sounds miserable.
And the other thing is he keeps on saying, `They want to make a Harding out of
us, they want to make a bunch of crooks out of us.' He kept on focusing on the
danger, that he thought that these enemies of his, whether it was Robert
Kennedy or maybe, as he came to feel, hidden enemies on his own White House
staff wanted to send him to jail, have him impeached as president. And this
was a guy who was much too suspicious for his own good. And as time went on,
it only got worse.

GROSS: Presidential historian Michael Beschloss recorded in 2001 after the
publication of the second volume in his trilogy of LBJ's secret White House
tapes. The book is called "Reaching for Glory." Beschloss will be back in the
second half of the show. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(Announcements)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with more of our interview
with presidential historian Michael Beschloss about President Lyndon Johnson's
secret White House tapes, tapes of conversations with cabinet members, aides
and officials made on Johnson's hidden recording system in the Oval Office.
He made these tapes with the intention of providing a reliable record that
could be used in his daily business. Beschloss edited three volumes of
Johnson's tapes. This interview with Beschloss was recorded in November 2001,
after the publication of the second volume, "Reaching For Glory," covering the
years 1964 to '65.

GROSS: There was a lot of speculation while LBJ was president about what
would have happened in Vietnam had President Kennedy lived. Would we have
gotten in deeper? Would he have pulled out sooner? And LBJ was worried that
some people were saying that LBJ was blaming the war on Kennedy and he was
making it his responsibility. And LBJ was denying that he was trying to lay
the blame on Kennedy. And he talked about that in a conversation with his
secretary of defense, Robert McNamara, in January of 1965. What should we be
listening for in this tape?

Mr. BESCHLOSS: Well, I put this one in the book because what it shows is
that Johnson felt that Kennedy was not only--John Kennedy committed to defend
South Vietnam, but Johnson in January of '65 felt that if he betrayed that
commitment, the person who would go after him would be the late president's
brother, Robert Kennedy. Because in January of '65, Robert Kennedy was not a
dove but a hawk. And so LBJ felt that if he pulled out of Vietnam, one of the
big penalties he'd pay would be that RFK would make his life miserable and
say, `You betrayed my brother's commitment.'

GROSS: Well, let's hear this recording between McNamara and LBJ in January of
'65.

(Soundbite of audiotape)

Pres. JOHNSON: They have these little parties out in Georgetown, and Bill
Moyers tells me they had a party last night, and Joe Olson called up very
excited today and said that he and Kraft and Evans and the Kennedy crowd
decided that I had framed up to get Armed Services in the Senate to call
McCone to put the Vietnam War on Kennedy's tomb, and that I had a conspiracy
going on to show that it was Kennedy's immaturity and poor judgment that
originally led us into this thing, that got us involved, and that his
execution of it had brought havoc to the country.

Mr. ROBERT McNAMARA: Well...

Pres. JOHNSON: Now, of course, I never laid any blame on Kennedy.

Mr. McNAMARA: No.

Pres. JOHNSON: Have you ever heard me blame Kennedy for anything?

Mr. McNAMARA: None. None. Absolutely not. No, I mentioned this to Jackie
several times. I was very impressed by your attitude on that while the
president was alive, as a matter of fact.

Pres. JOHNSON: I may not have anything else in my life, but I've got
loyalty. I think that if any of this crowd is in your vicinity or in your
associates' vicinity, I think what you ought to say to them is this: that I
assume full responsibility for everything and don't ask anybody else to take
it, including President Kennedy.

Mr. McNAMARA: Mm-hmm.

Pres. JOHNSON: And during his lifetime, whatever he did, I was for. And in
his death, it's my complete responsibility and I don't want--I don't shove it
off on anybody else.

(End of soundbite)

GROSS: LBJ and Robert McNamara, recorded in January of 1965. And, Michael
Beschloss, at this point is Johnson starting to think that Bobby Kennedy is
becoming an enemy instead of an ally?

Mr. BESCHLOSS: As early as the beginning of Johnson's elected presidency
after the election of 1964, Johnson figured that RFK wanted to do him in and
also probably run against him for president in 1968.

GROSS: And what happened to their relationship as time went by?

Mr. BESCHLOSS: It went only south, Terry. Kennedy, within a few months
after this tape, came out against the Vietnam War and began thinking seriously
about running against Johnson in 1968; and, of course, RFK finally did in
March of 1968, only a couple of weeks before LBJ pulled out.

GROSS: Let's hear one more conversation between LBJ and Robert McNamara, this
one recorded in June of '65, in which LBJ is confessing some of his fears
about the war.

(Soundbite from audiotape)

Pres. JOHNSON: It's going to be difficult for us to very long prosecute
effectively a war that far away from home with the divisions that we have
here, and particularly the potential divisions. And it's really had me
concerned for a month and I'm very depressed about it because I see no program
from either Defense or State that gives me much hope of doing anything except
just praying and gasping to hold on during monsoon and hope they'll quit. I
don't believe they're ever going to quit. I don't see that we have any way of
either a plan for a victory, militarily or diplomatically.

(End of soundbite)

GROSS: Well, that's as early as '65, and he thinks it's pretty hopeless. How
did he manage to keep getting in deeper when he was so pessimistic about the
outcome all along?

Mr. BESCHLOSS: This is the Alfred Hitchcock element. He felt that he had
absolutely no alternative. He felt that the only alternative open to him was
to somehow try to fight this war in a way that would perhaps hold off the
communists, not let the Republicans call him soft on communism. And then the
other side was he felt that he shouldn't escalate the war so much that he'd
risk a nuclear war with the Russians and the Chinese. Johnson said when he
left the presidency, the best thing about leaving the job of being president
was every single night I didn't have to worry about the fact that there might
be World War III tomorrow.

GROSS: How did LBJ feel about the anti-war movement and the campus protests?
I mean, in some ways, he agreed with the people who were protesting the war in
Vietnam. He agreed that it couldn't be won.

Mr. BESCHLOSS: That's the poignant thing. He did agree, and that's the big
shocker of this book is that maybe the biggest anti-war person was LBJ
because, in private, he was saying the same thing as those kids were saying
out in public, which is this war is a loser. But at the same time, Johnson
would not listen to what the people on the campuses were saying. In the
spring of 1965, there were anti-war demonstrations of 15,000 kids or more
saying, `End this war.' Johnson didn't listen because he convinced himself
that they were totally orchestrated by communists. This was a communist
conspiracy to somehow constrain him or destroy him. So you had a president
who was getting more and more suspicious and depressed, more tired, more
beleaguered. And rather than saying, `Perhaps these students are saying
something I should listen to,' instead he's saying, `These are just the tools
of communists. I'll ignore them.'

GROSS: There's also things in your book about the civil rights movement. And
I thought we could listen to a conversation that LBJ had with George Wallace,
who was then governor of Alabama. This is March 18th of 1965. And at this
time, LBJ was trying to pressure George Wallace to speed up black registration
and desegregate the schools. And George Wallace was saying that LBJ had no
authority in that area. Tell us more about what was happening at this time
between LBJ and George Wallace.

Mr. BESCHLOSS: Well, I was so glad to put this in the book because here is
one of the great moments in history that you're so glad you have a tape of,
because this was the time of the Selma-to-Montgomery march, and Johnson is
trying to get George Wallace, the segregationist governor of Alabama, to be at
least as benign as possible and not interfere and, if possible, to protect the
marchers. But he didn't trust Wallace, so what you hear him doing is trying
to push Wallace to give these marchers some protection. And you hear Wallace
trying to protect himself politically.

GROSS: OK. This is LBJ and Governor George Wallace in March of 1965.

(Soundbite from audiotape)

Governor GEORGE WALLACE: All I want to say, quite frankly, is that they've
been stirred up by a lot of things. And, of course, I know you don't want
anything to happen that looks like a revolution.

Pres. JOHNSON: Maybe, by all of us saying to them, `Let's have the march.
Let's get it over as soon as we can. Let's everybody stay at home that will
and let's don't.' When you talk about a revolution, that really...

Gov. WALLACE: Well, what I...

Pres. JOHNSON: That really upsets us all.

Gov. WALLACE: Well, let me say this, Mr. President, we do have the
revolutionaries down here.

Pres. JOHNSON: Well, I know that. I understand that.

Gov. WALLACE: But--and, of course, if I was a revolutionary, I probably
could invite a quarter of a million people to come help us, but, of course, I
don't want anything like that at all.

Pres. JOHNSON: I know.

Gov. WALLACE: I just want it to get through. But the reason: I don't want
to be in the position of the enemy that I'm asking for federal troops. We
have ministers down here that walk up and scratch the patrolmen on the hands,
you know. And they're turning it around. A Negro priest yesterday asked all
the patrolmen what their wives were doing. We reckon some of their friends
could have dates with their wives, you know, trying to provoke them; those
kind of things.

Pres. JOHNSON: I think it'd be better if you called up the Guard in the
service of the state, and I just approved it and gave some advisers with them,
rather than our...

Gov. WALLACE: Yes, sir.

Pres. JOHNSON: ...doing it. And if the situation deteriorated and if your
highway patrolmen are going back to the highways to take care of the drunk
drivers and things like that and you've got this group of--that's coming and
the highway's moving and the tourist court's filling up, if you call up your
Guard, I'll put the best people we've got to work right with them. And our
people here applaud the conduct of the Guard the last time they had them.
They think you're all right. And we'll just--we'll have them sitting back,
alerted, ready for whatever help you need--these others. And I think I'd just
say that and I think I just ought to say that I'm asking people in the country
not to let this thing get out of hand.

(End of soundbite)

GROSS: Why did LBJ want Wallace to call the National Guard instead of LBJ
doing it?

Mr. BESCHLOSS: Because Johnson knew that if it looked as if the Feds were
coming in, that would hurt the civil rights movement. He wanted Wallace to do
it. And, of course, Wallace, because he was against civil rights, he was
throwing the hot potato back to Johnson, saying, `You do it.'

You know, Terry, this is really Lyndon Johnson at his best in this
conversation because this was a guy who, in the pit of his stomach, what he
cared most was about was civil rights and poverty. He wanted to help the
poor. That's what he wanted to devote his presidency to, instead of Vietnam.
And on the civil rights side, we were all really lucky to have this Southern
president in office who was the one who was bringing the civil rights
revolution to America. You know, even listening to him talking to Wallace,
you notice his accent gets a little bit more Southern. He speaks to Wallace
in his own language. That made it a little bit easier.

GROSS: Michael Beschloss, a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much for
being with us.

Mr. BESCHLOSS: Me, too. Thank you very much, Terry.

GROSS: Presidential historian Michael Beschloss, recorded in 2001 after the
publication of his second volume of LBJ's secret White House tapes.

Coming up, creating a style of political comedy based on the day's headlines.
Mort Sahl talks about performing in the '50s and '60s. This is FRESH AIR.

(Announcements)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Interview: Mort Sahl discusses the role of the political satirist
and his career as a comedian
TERRY GROSS, host:

Most of today's political comics owe a debt to Mort Sahl. He was famous in
the '50s and '60s for walking on stage with a newspaper and giving his take on
the headlines. He was the first comic to make a live recording, do college
concerts, speak at the National Press Club, or appear on the cover of Time. I
spoke with him in December 2003, 50 years after he gave his first performance
at the San Francisco nightclub The Hungry I where he developed his satirical
voice and started to click with his audience.

Mr. MORT SAHL: The blacklist was on then, not that it isn't on now, and it
was that the Russians were provoking us, you know, at every turn in Berlin and
all. And I pointed out to the audience that every time the Russians threw an
American in jail, we would throw an American in jail to show them they can't
get away with it.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. SAHL: And I found the oppressed majority, as Adlai Stevenson pointed
out, which were the Democrats, who were all around and thought that it was the
conformist '50s and they weren't welcome. But a lot of this sounds innocuous
now, you know, like General Motors might become resentful and cut the
government off without a cent.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. SAHL: See, there wasn't a Ralph Nader then. And there weren't any kids,
you know.

GROSS: So before you performed at The Hungry I, had you performed anyplace
else before?

Mr. SAHL: Yeah, in Los Angeles. I was trying to get started for about two
years, very unsuccessfully.

GROSS: What were you doing before and when you were in LA?

Mr. SAHL: Oh, imitations of movie stars and anti-authoritarian stuff about
people and policemen, mostly about being a misfit in society, which of course
makes you everybody. So there was no success here. The city was unconscious;
may still be as far as I know.

GROSS: Were you doing James Cagney impressions like every other comic?

Mr. SAHL: No, no, no. It was way-out stuff, you know, the cadence of
political people and the president, and also the sense of what they said more
than an impression. I mean, in the sense--well, let me give you an example.
Here was Johnson--later I did this--expanding the war, and the way he would do
it as he established a draft in a democracy, he said, `You know, it would be
wonderful if the world was at peace. It would be wonderful if other countries
wanted peace as much as we do. Unfortunately they don't. Therefore I'm
sending a truck to pick up your brother in the morning.'

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. SAHL: That was basically what it--you know? So it was kind of looking
in and saying, `Where are we and does anybody else feel this way?' A political
satirist's job is to draw blood.

GROSS: What are some of the things that you said over the years that you
think drew the most blood?

Mr. SAHL: Oh, my God, you know, when Kennedy was nominated, I introduced
him, and I sent a wire to his father, saying, `You haven't lost a son. You've
gained a country.' You know, that kind of--but something that reflects the
truth, not only the truth you find, but the truth of our fathers and something
that shows a sense of history. You know, when Jack Kennedy went to Vienna,
he'd only been in office two months, and he met Khrushchev. And he looked at
this medal on this chest, and he said, `What is that?' He said, `I won the
Lenin Peace Prize.' And Kennedy said, `Let's hope you get to keep it.'

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. SAHL: We aspired to be like that. I mean, you know--and that doesn't
mean I worship them. I had plenty of arguments with them, but those guys
could give you 15 rounds.

GROSS: Now you've made it really clear, and it's always been clear, that
you've had a strong streak of anti-authoritarianism...

Mr. SAHL: Yes.

GROSS: ...just being anti-authority in every way. Yet when you were a kid,
you tried to join the Army before...

Mr. SAHL: You bet.

GROSS: ...you were even of age to do it.

Mr. SAHL: That's correct.

GROSS: Why would you want to get into the Army if you were so anti-authority?

Mr. SAHL: Because it was World War II, and the greatest father figure of
them all, FDR, said that was a worthy war. So on one level, I wanted to go
get the Germans, and on another level, as a 120-pound kid, I wanted to get my
wings and go meet girls. I liked the glamor. I liked the idea of honor. I
liked all that. And we weren't crazy. We weren't lost, either. And that
generation probably saved America. The question is: For what? I mean, now
it's all about music and movies. I mean, you know, it would be great if, you
know, somebody were really willing to fight for something.

GROSS: Now so you tried to enlist when you were underage.

Mr. SAHL: Yeah.

GROSS: My understanding of the story is that your mother went to the Army and
said, `He's not old enough yet. Get him out of there.'

Mr. SAHL: Yeah, I went down and registered for the draft, because I knew if
it was coercion, they'd take me, whereas if I volunteered, they wouldn't take
me. So I registered for the draft, and then they called me, and then my
mother got me out.

GROSS: No, but wait a minute. Wait a minute. Were you trying to get in or
trying not to get in? I'm confused.

Mr. SAHL: I was trying to get in. My mother was trying to get me out. And
that may be the end, by the way, of this great crusade in the Middle East if
Bush starts drafting people. You know, the opportunity with this
administration is so rich as an example, and where are the comedians? I mean,
you know, it's like my conversation with him, when he said, `You've got to
fight the war on terror. Are you ready to make the sacrifices?' And I said,
`I don't know. I'm pretty exhausted from fighting communism with your
father.' And he said to me, `Well, I don't like it. It's a dirty job, but
that's what you elected me to do.' And of course, I was tempted to say, `We
didn't elect you that much,' but that'll come. That opportunity will come. I
knew him when he was a governor.

GROSS: I want to get back to something we were talking about earlier, which
is how you tried to get into the Army during World War II, but you were
underage.

Mr. SAHL: Yeah.

GROSS: And your mother kind of came and told the Army and got you out.

Mr. SAHL: She did.

GROSS: Was that embarrassing when that happened?

Mr. SAHL: Well, it was the shooting down of a dream. I really had the
glamour then. And once I got in and I saw that there were privileges and that
the officers manipulated people, that's when I decided I didn't want to be an
officer. I had a chance, so...

GROSS: Once you got in when you were older?

Mr. SAHL: Well, not much older, yeah. I went in at 18. But--and I was up
in the Aleutian Islands. So the point was that I had seen it all, but I
didn't want every young man to get killed because it once appealed to me. I
had this source of--I think what we're talking about here, even when we talk
straight and the role of comedy is that I'm not a liberal. I'm a radical.
The liberals, they made liberalism into a weigh station for people that want
to cooperate with a right-wing administration and not lose their source of
income and still be self-righteous. You know, have a dinner party at Barbra
Streisand's, but spend an equal amount of time with the guests and out in the
kitchen talking to the Nicaraguans. That's really what's going on here. And
you have to find a way to kid that, see. I'll give you an example, Terry.

GROSS: Sure.

Mr. SAHL: An example of a big joke on the stage is, going to a party at
Streisand's, a fund-raiser for a Democrat, and a star will walk up to me, and
he'll say, `I'm going to work for Gephardt. I don't know if he can win, but
when I look in the mirror in the morning to shave this mug, I've got to know I
did the right thing.' They always talk about conscience. Republicans never
do. And, you know, because liberals are ashamed of what they've accumulated,
and they don't think they have a right to it. And conservatives love
everything they have stolen. They're proud of it. So then another star will
come up to me and say, `I'm working for John Kerry and etc., because I've got
to look at this mug in the morning.'

So finally, Norman Lear comes up to me, and he says, `I'm working for Al
Sharpton. I know he hasn't got a prayer in a racist nation, but do you
understand why I would engage in a futile campaign?' I said, `Does this have
anything to do with when you're shaving?'

GROSS: My guest is Mort Sahl. We'll talk more about his political comedy
after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Announcements)

GROSS: My guest is Mort Sahl. He was famous in the '50s and '60s for his
political humor based on the headlines of the day.

Joseph Kennedy, JFK's father, asked...

Mr. SAHL: Yeah.

GROSS: ...you to write for John Kennedy's presidential campaign.

Mr. SAHL: That's right.

GROSS: And you agreed to do it.

Mr. SAHL: Uh-huh.

GROSS: What did you write for him that he used?

Mr. SAHL: Oh, I can give you some examples.

GROSS: Good.

Mr. SAHL: It was a lot of trouble about being a Catholic then. You're not
old enough to remember that, but that was a bad word to run for high office.
So I gave them--they come in and they say, `Are you going to take your orders
from the pope?' And he says, `It's not the hereafter that's bothering me but
November 4th is driving me out of my mind.' And when he went out there at the
press conference and May Craig from the Portland, Maine, paper said, `What are
you doing for women?' and he said, `Not enough, I'm sure.' Which is--he had
the quality to do it, though. You know, he had the moral authority. And he
and I used to argue all the time because I was a friend of Adlai Stevenson.

GROSS: Are there things you wrote for Kennedy that he didn't use that you
remember and wish he had used?

Mr. SAHL: Yeah, I did a lot of stuff about Eisenhower for him playing golf.
I said Eisenhower had hired Stevenson to write a foreign policy speech, which
was true, but he couldn't use it because of the language barrier, it was in
English. And he said, `I can't say that about him.' And William O.
Douglas--remember Justice Douglas? Douglas was there. He said to Kennedy,
`Listen, if you're going to be Stan Kenton, be Stan Kenton. Don't try and be
Lawrence Welk. He's better at it.' That's all true, you know. Who could come
up with that? There was great stuff. Yeah, I was--you know, and you can tell
a lot about the guys about which humor they'll use and which that they get.
The really heavyweight guys are never offended.

Richard Nixon said to me, `You got a chance to be Will Rogers, but you have to
remember to keep a blowtorch under my behind as well as Jack Kennedy's.'
Even-handed.

GROSS: Wait, wait, you already had the blowtorch under his behind.

Mr. SAHL: Well, he was drinking at that time...

GROSS: Oh.

Mr. SAHL: ...so--but he was the smartest guy I ever met in the office, by
the way.

GROSS: Oh yeah?

Mr. SAHL: Yeah, brilliant.

GROSS: Did you write for him, too? Would you...

Mr. SAHL: No, no. I did not.

GROSS: You didn't.

Mr. SAHL: But I worked for Reagan, who was a personal friend of mine, and...

GROSS: So whether you agree with somebody's politics or not, if you like them
personally, you'll write for them?

Mr. SAHL: Yeah. You do some jokes. At least Reagan had a sense of humor.
This guy has no sense of humor unless what he's doing now...

GROSS: Which guy?

Mr. SAHL: ...is an example.

GROSS: President Bush?

Mr. SAHL: Yeah. He has no sense of humor. I think he knows it, too. I
gave him a gag. He asked me when he was governor of Texas if he should allow
prayer by the student body at the football games, and I said, `It depends how
far behind you are.' And he wasn't sure. His father has a great...

GROSS: Oh, I see. I see.

Mr. SAHL: Yeah, yeah.

GROSS: I get it.

Mr. SAHL: His father has a great sense of humor, by the way. The old man
said to me at the White House, he said to me--he asked me when I got my
invitation to come to a dinner there, and I told him it had taken four weeks
for the letter to get to California, and he said, `That's absurd.' And I said,
`How are you going to get these guys in line? Are you going to fire everybody
in the post office?' He said, `No, I'm going to keep them on, but I'm going to
mail them their checks.' He's very intellectual, but he doesn't want that out,
you know. So was Estes Kefauver. It's wonderful.

GROSS: I imagine you still read a lot of newspapers.

Mr. SAHL: As many as I can find.

GROSS: And what about TV? Do you watch a lot of the cable news shows?

Mr. SAHL: Yeah, I have a satellite dish and I watch everything.

GROSS: Watch everything.

Mr. SAHL: That's gone down like everything else, see. Bitchery has replaced
satire. Bitchery and jealousy.

GROSS: Tell me what you mean by that.

Mr. SAHL: Well, you know, talking about the first lady's dress or reducing
fascism to gossip, it's the same--that's what's happened to news. I mean,
who's doing news? I mean, Diane Sawyer's walking with people and saying,
`Well, then you lost custody of your children when you were accused of smoking
medical marijuana?' What kind of news is that? You know, I find the press too
compliant. They won't give these guys any trouble.

GROSS: Mort Sahl, thank you so much for talking with us.

Mr. SAHL: Terry, I'll see you in Philadelphia.

GROSS: Hope so.

Mr. SAHL: (Laughs) So long.

GROSS: Mort Sahl recorded in 2003.

You can download podcasts of our show on our Web site, freshair.npr.org.

(Soundbite of music)

(Credits)

GROSS: I'm Terry Gross.
Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.