Transcript
TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. While in college at NYU, getting a degree in music production, singer-songwriter Maggie Rogers met Pharrell Williams, and during his visit to her class, Pharrell heard an early version of Maggie's song "Alaska" and was stunned by it. The interaction from a video went viral and propelled her to fame. She has a new album, her third, called "Don't Forget Me." She spoke with our producer, Sam Briger. Here's Sam.
SAM BRIGER, BYLINE: I got to see Maggie Rogers perform when she was last here in Philadelphia. She was playing at a theater in a series of smaller shows she was doing called Box Office Week. The day of each show, Rodgers would be selling the tickets herself, two per person at the venue, meeting the fans that lined up early in the morning. Rogers was interested in pairing down the concert experience to something more intimate, personal and less corporate. In the fall, she will be playing arenas. But Box Office Week is the kind of thoughtful concept you might imagine from the singer-songwriter. In 2021, burnt out from the road, Maggie Rogers took a break and got a master's degree from Harvard Divinity School, where she explored public gatherings and the ethics of power in pop culture. She's been trying to find a way to make the life of a touring musician more sustainable. Let's hear a track from Maggie Rogers' new album, "Don't Forget Me." This is "So Sick Of Dreaming."
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SO SICK OF DREAMING")
MAGGIE ROGERS: (Singing) So you think you're on the right track, cruising on the bridge in your gray Cadillac. You think it's easy, walking on the water like they're stepping stones. But when every little thing's up for taking, oh, it makes me want to sing, my heart's breaking. Oh, there ain't no diamond ring you could buy me to take me home. Oh, 'cause I'm so sick of dreaming. Oh, and I'm all that I'm needing.
BRIGER: That's "So Sick Of Dreaming" from Maggie Rogers new album, "Don't Forget Me." Maggie Rogers, welcome to FRESH AIR.
ROGERS: Thanks for having me.
BRIGER: So you've said that in this album, this is the first time where some of the material doesn't come from your own life, that you're, like, playing with a persona. And I was wondering if that's freeing, because I imagine if you're writing songs about your own life, there'd be this, like, self-imposed pressure to like, get it right, to be precise with the details, to be authentic to the experience.
ROGERS: Massively so. I mean, I think in being able to sort of inhabit a character, I was able to weave this tapestry of all of these different memories throughout really my 20s - I just turned 30. And I was sort of able to tell maybe even a more real version of the truth in telling fiction. Over the course of writing this record, this character who's like a 25-ish-year-old girl who's leaving home and sort of going on this road trip through the American Southwest, kind of appeared in my mind, and I was able to write the songs in sequence. The album is sequenced in the order that I wrote the songs in. And I was sort of writing them like scenes in a movie, you know, that takes place over, like, 36 hours and has a very, like, "Thelma And Louise-esque," ride to it. And yeah. And it was just helpful structure.
BRIGER: So without revealing, like, is it that there are certain songs that are more autobiographical than others or that this persona and your own life are sort of woven through each of the songs?
ROGERS: They're definitely woven through. I have no problem revealing, you know, because...
BRIGER: You do that sometimes.
ROGERS: I mean, yeah, I've been doing that for a long time. I'm also just sort of, like, professionally vulnerable and just naturally very comfortable with that. But I think it's that the feelings in all of these songs are very real.
BRIGER: You've said that you write songs as a way of processing your life. Does that mean that, like once you've written about something, that it helps you come to a resolution? Like, you don't have to think about that part of your life as much?
ROGERS: I think that was really true when I started writing songs. I started writing songs kind of at the end of middle school and the beginning of high school, and it was very much a, like, 1-to-1 diary entry directive, where I would write songs as a form of like self-soothing therapy and sort of play the song until I felt a new way. And it was also at this time where I was experiencing so much in my life for the first time. And it was 15 years ago now. And I think now I think about songwriting a lot as a form of archiving. I mean, obviously I'm a nostalgic person if my record is called "Don't Forget Me," but there's so much beauty in life and so much detail and so much memory, and I do worry about forgetting it all or being able to, like, get my arms so full of detail that I don't drop anything. And putting it into my art feels like one way of being able to just keep holding it.
BRIGER: Well, you know, you mentioned nostalgia. And I wanted to ask you about that. When I first listened to the album, I was like, oh, this is really nostalgic. This is interesting. But...
ROGERS: Yeah.
BRIGER: But, you know, then I listened to so much over the last two weeks, and you've been writing nostalgic songs since you were, like, 16 or 17 years old.
ROGERS: Yeah, yeah.
BRIGER: So I was wondering, like, do you think that that's just your inherently a nostalgic person, or do you think it's like this process that you have of, like, making sense of your life is inevitably going to have, like, a nostalgic aspect to it?
ROGERS: I think it's really a part of who I am. Like, my dad always tells the story of the night I turned 5, he found me sobbing, and I was just, like, completely overwhelmed at the fact that I would never be 4 again.
BRIGER: Yeah, well, you write about that, in - is it "Kids Like Us"?
ROGERS: Yeah. Hey, yeah, I do. I do write about that. And it is just I think this idea of time, and the way that it slips through your fingers and not being able to go back. I mean, I think not to talk more about live performance and why I love it, but it kind of is because the thing about being on stage is the second it's awesome and you're like, something is really happening here, it's gone. And you can't hold it. You can just be present in it and hope that you remember it. And so anyway, yeah, I'm a nostalgic person. This is just who I am.
BRIGER: Nostalgia is such a weird thing because it's, like, this thing that humans indulge in, like this sort of way that we get to enjoy sadness. It's a very strange emotion.
ROGERS: That's my favorite music, though. Like, whether it's something like Robyn, which I would classify in my favorite genre, which is dancing while crying or - I don't know, some of the great, like I always think about Lucinda Williams or Gillian Welch, and that's kind of some of the music that I put on when it feels good to feel sad.
BRIGER: Right.
ROGERS: There's such a feeling to that. And even when I think about it in my head, I think about, like, being in the kitchen in late August, and it's humid, and my mom's making iced tea on the back porch, and like, summer's about to be over because school is starting. Like, that to me, is the feeling of that kind of music.
BRIGER: Yeah. Yeah, that's, like, what Sundays are like me (laughter).
ROGERS: Yeah, exactly. I'm like, I want music to feel like a Sunday. And that actually, like - when I made "Don't Forget Me," I wanted to make a record that felt like a Sunday afternoon driving record, because those to me are, like, some of my favorite records.
BRIGER: Yeah, well, that's actually my next question because, this music has this lightness, this relaxed feeling, but it's a real contrast to the previous album, "Surrender," which was like a real COVID album.
ROGERS: Yeah.
BRIGER: Like, there was a lot of pent-up emotions. There was sadness, frustration, anger. And you could really feel that in the music. But you end that album with this song called "Different Kind Of World," where the refrain is, when we're riding all together, it's a different kind of world, when we're riding all together, I'm a different kind of girl. But so, like, your new album, like, you wrote the driving music that you were missing back then.
ROGERS: Yeah. Well, I always want to make the record that I want to hear. Maybe that's selfish, or maybe that's just intuitive. Or maybe that's the understanding that I'm going to play these songs a million times...
BRIGER: You better like them.
ROGERS: ...Over the course of my lifetime. Yeah. For "Surrender," I mean, I was living in Maine during the pandemic in this very isolated area by the water, and all I wanted was to be in a rock club. Like, I wanted someone to spill beer on my shoes. I wanted someone to be, like, too sweaty and touch my arm. I wanted someone that was too tall to stand in front of me. I wanted to feel that, like, jostle around. And I kept thinking about being in these D.I.Y. rock clubs in college in Bushwick and listening to all these great bands who lead with distorted guitar when the drum kit is on the floor, like, three feet in front of you. Like, that's what I wanted in the pandemic. And that's what I was thinking about with "Surrender." It was just this, like, absolute mouthwatering desire to be around people and be around sound.
I mean, I started playing around with distortion as a tool and it again with that, like, resonant therapy thing, distortion felt so therapeutic. And it felt so nice in this, like, deep, deep, deep, quiet space to really make sound. And, you know, when I started touring that record, I learned a lot about it, and it was a really, really wild time to be touring because it was the first time coming back from the pandemic. And...
BRIGER: Yeah.
ROGERS: The energy and the current of those shows was really unstable.
BRIGER: Yeah, I bet.
ROGERS: It was like people weren't, like, connecting to each other as a group yet. And at the same time, a lot of - people were crying. And lot of people were coming to shows alone with a lot of heaviness to sort of move through. A lot of people were passing out in a way that I had never seen before.
BRIGER: Wow. Do you think they'd been drinking too much or, like...
ROGERS: I think it was a combination of social anxiety and just not being used to standing for that long?
BRIGER: Yeah. Let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, our guest is Maggie Rogers. Her new album is "Don't Forget Me." We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF AMY RIGBY SONG, "PLAYING PITTSBURGH")
BRIGER: This is FRESH AIR. We're speaking with singer-songwriter Maggie Rogers. Her new album is called "Don't Forget Me."
So let's hear another song from the album. I wanted to hear "Don't Forget Me," and I kind of want to use this song as a vehicle to talk about your writing. So listeners, if you want, pay attention to the rhythm of these lines and how they're rhyming. So this is "Don't Forget Me."
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "DON'T FORGET ME")
ROGERS: (Singing) My friend Sally's getting married, and to me that sounds so scary. I'm still trying to clean up my side of the street. I can't imagine what would happen 'cause I'm still acting out of habit, hoping dirty words just don't escape my teeth. Oh, but every time I try just a little. Promise that I'll meet in the middle. Always find my way back to my feet. So close the door and change the channel. Give me something I can handle - a good lover or someone that's nice to me. Take my money, wreck my Sundays, love me til your next somebody. Oh, but promise me that when it's time to leave, don't forget me. Don't forget me. My friend Molly...
BRIGER: That's the title track from Maggie Rogers' new album, "Don't Forget Me." So Maggie, first - like, what came first with this song? Like, was it the melody? Was it the idea? Did you have a rhyme in your head?
ROGERS: Yeah. This was the very last day in the studio at Electric Lady with me and Ian. And I remember we sat at the guitar, and I sort of started singing this melody, and Ian was playing chords, and we had sort of sketched the song that way, just melody and chords. And Ian went in and put the guitar down and then recorded some drums to go with it, and then he said, I think I'm going to be sick. I need to lay down. And I was like, OK, yeah, do your thing. And Ian sat in the live room for the next hour, like feeling really nauseous, and I sat in the control room with a notepad and just worked my way down the melody. And it started with, my friend Sally's getting married. And, yeah, I mean, songwriting, to me, it's like a word puzzle. I always have the melody and the layout of a song first, or sometimes, certain vowel sounds or certain words will come with the melody. There is a sort of shape to that current, but, you kind of inherently understand how many syllables and the shape of what should go there. So it's like doing building blocks and a crossword puzzle in the same breath.
BRIGER: Well, yeah. I mean, this song particularly seems to have a lot of structure to it because you have, like - the first line has, like, this internal rhyme and then that rhymes with the next line. But, like, it's - you know, I don't want to sort of scan the whole thing, but, like...
ROGERS: No...
BRIGER: ...There's a lot of scaffolding to this. And so - and I also noticed that this song sticks in my head a lot. So I was wondering if those two things are perhaps related.
ROGERS: I mean, with this record or a lot of - a lot of my music, momentum is kind of a tool in my creative process, where I find the best work happens when I stop thinking and just make for fun. So I wasn't really overanalyzing in any way. I was just writing what I felt, which is thinking about my friend Sally getting married and realizing that I'm just not ready for that, and that feels like a fairly normal 30-year-old sentiment (laughter), but this type of song specifically, my friend Sally, my friend Molly, the way that that structure is built is such a classic folk song structure.
BRIGER: Right.
ROGERS: It's like deep Americana. That really was the kind of music I was really interested in in high school, when I was really honing my craft, and so it's funny with "Don't Forget Me" because I've kind of avoided writing this type of song for a long time because it's the kind of song I can write in my sleep. Like, there is such a tradition and a structure to it, so it's just easy. It's like plug-and-play, you know, because there's format and structure, you know, I could write another song, my friend Anna. You know, it's just like - it's like Dylan. There's a way to just move through those verses, and part of that just comes from me being such a student and a fan of music and having a real reverence for that kind of structure.
BRIGER: And I think that that sort of hearkens back, like you say, to a sort of folk tradition, which also kind of feels like there's a singsonginess. There's almost like a nursery rhyme kind of element to the song.
ROGERS: Well, I think, in so many ways, that's why I've sort of said that this record feels like coming home. You know, I started as a guitar player and a banjo player, making folk music very much in the tradition of the, like, 2012 indie music coming out of Brooklyn and coming out of New York, and that's just what I listened to in high school. And when I got to NYU to study music production and engineering, I just started learning a lot and then experimenting with these new tools, and I wanted to think about drum sounds and bass textures and synthesizers, and what would it sound like if I changed the production? I mean, the thing is, is at the core, throughout my career, the songwriting has been fairly consistent and the production is the thing that, you know, I've been...
BRIGER: That's been changing.
ROGERS: Yeah, just experimenting with how I dress up the body, but the body has stayed the same all the time.
BRIGER: You know, the person in the song is asking for so little from a partner. Like...
ROGERS: (Laughter) Yeah.
BRIGER: ...She's not ready for a big commitment. Like, she's skeptical about long-term relationships, but like - but she's just like, just be nice to me; like, love me until you find the next person. Like, it's inevitable there will be a next person. And the exhortation, like, don't forget me, like, there's pretty low expectations here.
ROGERS: Yeah. My friends - I have joked with my friends that this is, like, my low-standards song.
BRIGER: (Laughter) Yeah.
ROGERS: A good lover and someone that's nice to me, like...
BRIGER: Take my money.
ROGERS: (Laughter).
BRIGER: Yeah.
ROGERS: Wreck my Sundays.
BRIGER: (Laughter) Yeah.
ROGERS: But I think that is love, right? Like, I think love does - I don't know. At least, I can speak for myself, or speak for my friends in those intimate conversations, but I think love does destroy, in some wonderful way, where both people raise each other up and hurt each other in the same breath, and it still makes everything greater than what it could have been on your own. And that, to me, feels like something worth having or worth fighting for, even if it's temporary, and I think my ask in this song is just, when it's all over, wanting it to be worth it.
BRIGER: Some of the song also seems to be just addressing getting older.
ROGERS: Yeah.
BRIGER: Like, friends are talking about maybe having a family, a marriage. The parents are talking about selling one's childhood homes. So you just turned 30 a few weeks ago. Happy birthday, first of all.
ROGERS: Thank you (laughter).
BRIGER: But, like, does that mean something to you? Like, do you place a lot of importance on leaving your 20s behind you?
ROGERS: I mean, as much as any other. Like, my job is to narrate my life, so of course there's importance on it (laughter), but I felt emotional about it, yeah. I didn't expect to, and a couple days before - I got some birthday blues, like, before in really saying goodbye to this decade, but the 20s are hard, and I woke up on the first day of my 30s and was like - I think just knowing my self-worth and just being like, oh, it's all good; like, I got it. And I did feel a sense of that, like, clean slate.
BRIGER: That's what actually happens to everyone when they turn 30. That's just...
ROGERS: It's just wiped away.
BRIGER: It's just universal, yeah.
(LAUGHTER)
ROGERS: Good. OK. It's not placebo.
MOSLEY: That's Maggie Rogers, speaking with Sam Briger. She has a new album called "Don't Forget Me." We'll be back with more from Maggie Rogers after a short break. I'm Tonya Mosley, and this is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF Song, "KIDS LIKE US")
ROGERS: (Singing) And I'll turn 18 on a Sunday, and it'll be the day I've waited for. Mom will bake cake, and there'll be presents, like there always was before. But if time keeps moving just like this, then it won't be soon before I'm old. And they will all be wishing they could just be kids like us. And they will all be wishing they could just be kids like us. But I'm getting older with each day, and soon, I'll be wishing, too. And on the eve of my fifth birthday...
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. Let's get back to the interview Sam Briger did with singer-songwriter Maggie Rogers. She has a new album called "Don't Forget Me." Rogers took a break from the touring life of a musician in 2021 to attend Harvard Divinity School, where she graduated with a master's in religion and public life. She was interested in examining the spirituality of public gatherings and the ethics of power in pop culture. She's now a fellow of the school and is adapting her thesis into a book.
BRIGER: So, Maggie, you know, you're just one of a handful of pop stars who've gotten their master's degree from Harvard Divinity School.
ROGERS: (Laughter).
BRIGER: So can you tell us a little bit about what led to that decision?
ROGERS: Yeah. I mean, first of all, I just really love school. I mean, there's just so much to learn about in the world, and I always used to threaten - like, when I was on tour, I'd always say to my band, like, ah, one day we're going to stop touring, and I'm going to go to grad school.
BRIGER: (Laughter).
ROGERS: And there's so much fantasy to school of, like, you know, the blazer and the briefcase and the pencils. But I think, honestly, I had such a big first ride the first, like, four or five years of my career. And when the pandemic came, I just was really burnt out, and it was creating this situation where I just - I love music more than anything else in the entire world, and I realized that the structure around music that really protected it and kept it sacred wasn't working for me. Like, I was thinking about quitting and just saying, you know, this is making me not love making music. And I sort of was like, how is that possible? How could that have happened?
And part of this is age appropriate - you know, like, I turned 27 and was like, maybe I want to go to grad school, or maybe I need to ask more questions. I think the biggest thing with being an artist is there is no structure. You know, it's up for every person to decide how long they do this and what it looks like over the scope of their life, and I want to have a really long, fruitful, inspiring, sustainable career doing this because it's what I love more than anything else in the entire world. And so. Yeah, I applied to grad school and just - I wanted to spend the time while the pandemic was happening really thinking about what I believe, and what does it mean to be an artist and what are the boundaries that I want to hold around that, and how do I create sustainable structure around that for me to be able to do it for a really long time?
BRIGER: And so what was it that you were hoping to get from this program? I mean, it's not a theology school at this point, but so...
ROGERS: Yeah. That's important to sort of note...
BRIGER: Right.
ROGERS: ...That I didn't go to any kind of seminary.
BRIGER: No.
ROGERS: I didn't train to be a priest.
BRIGER: But clearly, it has to do with some sort of element of spirituality, and that seems tethered to your understanding of, like, what music is like and performance.
ROGERS: Yeah.
BRIGER: So, like, what were you hoping to sort of figure out when you were writing your thesis?
ROGERS: So my master's degree is in religion and public life. So this program that I went to was specifically for people who don't work in religion who want a greater understanding of religion and the way it works in the world, to be able to inform their sort of nonreligious life, and I found as I was performing and onstage that people were asking me for answers to questions I felt really unqualified to answer. Like, I found myself in this unconventional ministerial position without undergoing any of the training. Like, people were asking me for my perspective on politics, suicide - people were asking me to perform marriages - depression. And I was like, I'm 24. Like, I have no idea. I was in no way any more qualified than anybody else to have an answer on these things. The thing that I really spent time learning about and being an expert in was music, but people didn't even really ask me about music much, and even that, I was still early in learning...
BRIGER: Right.
ROGERS: ...And still am. And so the program - it was just really nice to have some quiet time to think about what I believed and really thinking about, you know, in this time that is more divisive than it's ever been, how do people come together and how do people create meaning? And I think at its core, music has always been the most sacred and most spiritual thing that I've ever been a part of. Whether it's being in the crowd at a show at an early age or being onstage with my band when we're all jamming or playing music together and we just hit that right thing all at the same time, like something was telepathically communicated - that, to me, it's just - it's the closest thing I've ever felt to something divine.
And so a lot of what I did was study religious theory and study the sort of, like, technical, philosophical ways that people think about and talk about religion and the structure of religion, and then I applied it to music and to touring and to festivals, and used all of that to sort of create this system for myself to navigate some of these bigger questions I was having about ethics of having a public platform and sustainability within my career, and how do I use the work that I love to do the most amount of good in the world?
BRIGER: Well, you know, I mean, I saw you live when you were here in Philadelphia, and I can see, based on your fans, why you might think about this stuff so much, because you have a very engaged fan base. It might have been a bit of a, like, sample bias because these were, as I said, people who, like...
ROGERS: Right.
BRIGER: ...Got up early in the morning and waited in line and didn't get tickets in the traditional way. But the show took place, like, three days after your album had been released. I mean, a couple of the singles had been out for a little bit, but, like, so many people knew all the lyrics to the new songs and were, like, singing them back to you. People - it did have a sort of festival spirit. Like, actually, a woman proposed to her girlfriend...
ROGERS: Yeah.
BRIGER: ...During the performance, and that was a successful proposal. So, like, I can see why you're thinking about the ethics of performing 'cause you wield a lot of power onstage.
ROGERS: Well, I think, like any kind of power dynamic, it's worth investigating and being really conscious of. And to me, art is a form of caring. It's a form of taking care of people and taking care of yourself, and it's also a form of connecting. And studying this stuff has been a way for me to really take care of this community of people who allow me to do the thing that I love doing more than anything, and that will always feel like time well spent because in a way, that's also taking care of me. That connection, that sense of purpose, I'm so just, like, bowled over by it anytime I touch it. And I think that that actually was what was so special about doing these in-person ticketing events, is that you see the numbers on an email or you see them on social media, and they're kind of arbitrary. But I'd wake up in the morning at these ticketing events and go say hello to the 3,000 people waiting in line to buy a ticket to my show. And it's so surreal.
BRIGER: You know, at the show, you also interacted a lot with the crowd, like...
ROGERS: Oh, yeah. I've been asking for gossip.
BRIGER: Yeah. You told people that...
ROGERS: (Laughter).
BRIGER: ...If they gave you a piece of gossip, then they get to choose a song...
ROGERS: Yeah.
BRIGER: ...That you play. So, you know, because you went to grad school specifically to think about, like, these issues, like, there must be some intent or some thought behind the way you're interacting. So, like, how do you think that functions in your performance? And I'll say in part because, you know, I always heard that Jerry Garcia would never talk from stage because he was so concerned about...
ROGERS: Like, God voice.
BRIGER: Yeah. Exactly.
ROGERS: Yeah.
BRIGER: And so your approach is, like, almost the opposite. Like, you're coming down, like, as much as you can and interacting.
ROGERS: Well, I think - I don't feel like I know any more than anybody else. And that's why songwriting is so powerful to me because, like, if you can make yourself, like, as vulnerable as humanly possible, you hit universal truth.
BRIGER: Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, our guest is Maggie Rogers. Her new album is "Don't Forget Me." We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF AMANDA GARDIER'S “FJORD”)
BRIGER: This is FRESH AIR. We're speaking with singer-songwriter Maggie Rogers. Her new album is called "Don't Forget Me."
So, Maggie, you know, the moment of your discovery was filmed and went viral. You were a student at NYU, majoring in music production. Your class was visited by Pharrell Williams. He came to sort of listen and give you some notes about what you guys were doing. You played him an early version of your song "Alaska," and he was blown away by it. It's sweet because you both look kind of nervous and shy and like you're not sure whether you should, like, be seeing what he's thinking about your music.
ROGERS: Right.
BRIGER: Like, obviously, that's such an important moment in your career and partly fomented your success. But, like, is there a part of you that sometimes wishes that that video hadn't gone viral, that that was a moment that was more yours than everyone else's?
ROGERS: I mean, it was really, really scary when it happened. Like, I was incredibly overwhelmed. But it was also - it was complicated because I got the job that I had trained for and that I'd always wanted...
BRIGER: Right.
ROGERS: ...Exactly in the moment when I needed a job. And yet, it was so deeply and wildly out of my control. Like, it felt like something that was happening to me, even though it was something I had prepared for for, like, a decade at that point.
BRIGER: Right...
ROGERS: But I think...
BRIGER: ....'Cause you've been performing for a long time. You've been...
ROGERS: I've been making records...
BRIGER: ...Writing music for a long time. Yeah.
ROGERS: Yeah. Exactly. And then there was this moment where the door just opened. Part of me wishes that I got to upload that song and present my artistic statement. But also, what's beautiful about the video is how unguarded it is. So if it happened any other way, it wouldn't be what it is. And I feel, actually, really lucky that the version of me that got introduced to the world is and was the most authentic version of myself, because that's the kind of art that I love and I've always been drawn towards making. And so, like, do I wish that I, like, brushed my hair...
BRIGER: (Laughter).
ROGERS: ...And, like (laughter), put on a real outfit?
BRIGER: Would you...
ROGERS: Like (laughter)...
BRIGER: ...Still be wearing that necklace that's made of elk...
ROGERS: I mean - elk vertebrae.
BRIGER: ...Vertebrae (laughter)?
ROGERS: Yeah. I mean, I think that that's the thing that's sort of wild and funny about it is, like, when I suddenly overnight became a pop star, like, I needed a lot of clothes.
BRIGER: (Laughter).
ROGERS: And all of the clothes I had were for, like - I lived in the studio. Like, I was a studio rat. And suddenly, I needed, like, colorful, glittery outfits. And I was like, what do you mean I can't wear, like, my jeans and boots?
BRIGER: Let's hear a little bit of "Alaska."
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "ALASKA")
ROGERS: (Singing) I was walking through icy streams that took my breath away, moving slowly through westward water over glacial plains. And I walked off you. And I walked off an old me. Oh, me. Oh, my. I thought it was a dream. So it seemed. And now, breathe deep. I'm inhaling. You and I - there's air in between. Leave me be. I'm exhaling. You and I - there's air in between. (Vocalizing). You and I - there's air in between. (Vocalizing).
BRIGER: That's Maggie Rogers' song "Alaska." You know, Maggie, I'm not sure if it's because the song is called "Alaska," but there's always something about the song that, like, for me, feels like there's a coolness to it, like, that there's cold winds blowing. And I don't know if it's related to this, but you've said that you have synesthesia and that music has a color to you. And so you often - when you're writing, you create these, like, color moodboards for your songs. Can you describe that?
ROGERS: Yeah. I mean - well, I think that the coldness that you're talking about in that song comes from the synthesizers and how smooth they are.
BRIGER: And sparse, too, kind of.
ROGERS: Exactly. There is space to it. But even in those background vocals that sort of come to help transition from the pre-chorus to the chorus, there is a sort of - it's a plate reverb. You know, there's a lot of different kinds of reverb, but a plate reverb is quite metallic in the way that it's designed. And I think that some of that smoothness of the synth and the way that the sonic palette of that song is designed does sort of represent the landscape I was talking about, and that, to me, is, like, something I'm always trying to do, you know, make the music try and echo or tell the story of the emotion that it's soundtracking. And that comes from - you know, I grew up really loving classical music and playing the harp in orchestras, and I remember my mom, really early, telling me to listen to orchestral music because they were telling a story without words, and I was just so, so taken with that idea.
As far as these color mood boards go, I think it goes back to how fast everything was, because I've always had a very strong connection to color and sound, but also, as I got sort of, like, thrown into the, like, big dogs of the music industry, and was suddenly working with all of these different collaborators after really just working alone for a really long time, putting down my thoughts and feelings of the sonic palette or texture that I was trying to create into a couple different one-sheets were really helpful to walk into different peoples' studios with, because I could show them, in a couple different terms - whether it was just blocks of color on a page or images I had pulled off of the internet about how I wanted the record to feel, it was something that helped me communicate my artistic vision but also keep things really coherent, even as I was sort of navigating all of these wonderful new people that were coming into my life because of all of this new attention.
BRIGER: Did that also help, like, in order to sort of assert yourself in those situations? Like, would people try to get you to record things in different ways, but you had, like, all these different ways of sort of showing that you were really in command of these songs and that these were your creations and you knew what was best for them?
ROGERS: I mean, I think - I was lucky to work with a lot of really wonderful people who were true artists and really...
BRIGER: Listened to you.
ROGERS: Well, and the work of a co-producer is to serve the artist or to serve the art. I think that's also part of the reason that I was drawn to music production or to education in the first place, because in so many ways, knowledge is power. And I got into music production because I was writing songs in high school, and I couldn't get the guys to play my arrangements.
BRIGER: Right.
ROGERS: So I learned how to program. I learned how to play the songs by myself and create the arrangements for drums and bass and synth and all these things on the computer because I - it was, like, a gender problem, and when I got to school and I could learn about engineering and software and production and microphones and drum technique, it became something that allowed me to protect my vision. They were just tools that allowed me to get the thing that I heard in my head down onto paper.
I think ultimately, the thing that I love - you know, you were asking about people trying to change my ideas. The thing that I love about the music industry the most is its kind of, like, Wild West nature. It also makes it complicated, and I would be remiss to mention that. But it's this place where a 16-year-old girl in her bedroom can change the way that everybody does everything overnight, and that, to me, feels really special. The democratization of music software and the way that the internet has changed - the power that gatekeepers within the industry have - is something that is really inspiring to me.
BRIGER: Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, our guest is Maggie Rogers. Her new album is "Don't Forget Me." We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF THE VELVET UNDERGROUND'S "RIDE INTO THE SUN")
BRIGER: This is FRESH AIR. We're speaking with singer-songwriter Maggie Rogers. Her new album is called "Don't Forget Me." When did you start writing songs?
ROGERS: I started writing songs the summer I was 14, and so many important creative moments in my life have come out of a sense of boredom. Like, I taught myself to play guitar when I was in the eighth grade 'cause I got the flu and I was just home sick for a really long time and had asked for a guitar for a couple of years previous for Christmas and started teaching myself chords or tabs from the internet. And inevitably, I was sitting around and it was really rainy and I was with some girlfriends just hanging out that summer, and I started making up this joke song on my guitar about how it was raining. And then when everyone went home, I kept working on it, and I wrote a second verse that was emotional and personal and, in hindsight, nostalgic. (Laughter) And, yeah, I just remember feeling like something had happened - like I had plugged my socket into the wall, or like I had a new beam of light between my fingers - and just sort of kept returning to that feeling.
BRIGER: And before that, you would learn the harp, right? You started playing harp at 7.
ROGERS: Yeah. I mean, that is a product of really generous, patient parents because I just decided - you know, when I was a kid, I had Gustav Holst's "The Planets" - that was, like, one of my favorite records. And I just became obsessed with the harp. And I just wouldn't let it go. And my mom would - bless her. We had this, like, tiny rental harp because there's different kinds of sizes of harps. It's important because if you picture a 7-year-old in front of a massive harp...
BRIGER: Yeah, that wouldn't work so well.
ROGERS: ...It's really scary. Yeah, so we rented a folk harp, and my mom would strap it to the back of her car and we would drive, like, 40 minutes to the University of Salisbury.
BRIGER: Was that, like, an Irish harp, kind of? Is that the same thing?
ROGERS: Exactly. So there's, like, levers to it instead of foot pedals. And she would play me all this great neo-soul. We were in the car. So we were listening to, like, Erykah Badu and Lauryn Hill and India.Arie and Macy Gray and Outkast. And then I would go play classical music for a while. And I played in the orchestra til I was 18.
BRIGER: I want to end with the song "Light On," which is - at one point you called the most vulnerable song you've ever written. Why is that? It might not be the case anymore, but...
ROGERS: No, it's funny to be reminded of that. It was. "Light On" was written about when I almost quit music the first time. I mean, I joke about that, but it was written in this time where that first ride after Pharrell video was really scary. There's lyrics in this song that says, like, crying in the bathroom while everyone around you is saying, you must be so happy now.
BRIGER: Right.
ROGERS: And I think that that's the sort of wild thing about fame or success is that it lifts you up, but also it is incredibly lonely. And I was having this experience that was everything I'd ever wished for and yet felt kind of uncreative. And I really missed my friends and missed my life, and I just didn't know how to handle all of it. And again, incredibly specific experience and also kind of age-appropriate. I do think that is what happens in those first years after college...
BRIGER: Right.
ROGERS: ...When you have your first job, and you're just like, I don't know...
BRIGER: And you're rudderless.
ROGERS: ...What's going on. Yeah. You have to make new friends and learn how to do a new job. And that's exactly what I was doing. It just looked really different. And it felt really vulnerable to sort of - I had this Cinderella story. It felt really vulnerable to sort of say, I'm struggling with this. It doesn't feel as amazing as it looks, and that doesn't change how much I'm grateful for it. There is a complicated nuance in the middle, and this song was me, ultimately connecting with my audience and choosing to do it, that if you keep reaching out, then I'll keep coming back.
BRIGER: Well, Maggie Rogers, thanks so much for coming on FRESH AIR.
ROGERS: This has been such a dream. I have to just tell you. I'm a big, big, FRESH AIR-NPR girl, and this has been really special. Thank you so much for having me.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "LIGHT ON")
ROGERS: (Singing) Would you believe me now if I told you I got caught up in a wave? Almost gave it away. Would you hear me out if I told you I was terrified for days? Thought I was going to break. Oh, I couldn't stop it, tried to slow it all down. Crying in the bathroom, had to figure it out with everyone around me saying, you must be so happy now. Oh, if you keep reaching out, then I'll keep coming back...
MOSLEY: That's "Light On" by Maggie Rogers. She spoke with our producer, Sam Briger. Maggie Rogers' new album is called "Don't Forget Me." Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, an inside look at a corruption scandal that rocked the U.S. Navy. In his new book "Fat Leonard," journalist Craig Whitlock tells the story of a colorful Malaysian businessman who plied Navy commanders with lavish meals, trips, cash and sex workers. In return, they let him overcharge taxpayers and make millions. I hope you can join us.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "LIGHT ON")
ROGERS: (Singing) And do you believe me now that I always had the best intentions, babe? Always wanted to stay. And can you feel me now that I'm vulnerable in oh so many ways? Oh, and I'll never change. Oh, I couldn't stop it. Tried to figure it out. But everything kept moving and the noise got too loud, with everyone around me saying, you should be so happy now. Oh, if you keep reaching out, then I'll keep coming back. And if you're gone for good...
MOSLEY: Follow us on Instagram at @nprfreshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Susan Nyakundi, and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tonya Mosley.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "LIGHT ON")
ROGERS: (Singing) I'll leave the light on. Oh, would you leave the light on? If you keep reaching out, then I'll keep coming back. But if you're gone for good, then I'm OK with that. If you leave the light on, then I'll leave the light on...
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