A Liberian woman with a mysterious past dwells in limbo in 'Drift'

DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli. The Academy Awards are less than a month away. Today, we continue our series of interviews with or about Oscar nominees. Sterling K. Brown has been nominated for best supporting actor for his role in "American Fiction." The film has four other nominations, including best picture and best adapted screenplay. Brown also played prosecutor Christopher Darden in the miniseries "The People V. O.J. Simpson," winning an Emmy for that performance. He won another the following year for his performance in the popular NBC series "This Is Us."

Let's start with the film "American Fiction." It stars Jeffrey Wright as a college professor and novelist who is Black. It appears to him that the only books written by Black authors that white publishers want to print are books about being poor or in gangs or addicted to drugs or being a pregnant teenager. So under a pen name, he writes a book conforming to those expectations to prove his point. He's offered a huge advance, and the book becomes a bestseller. Sterling K. Brown plays the writer's brother. He's a plastic surgeon who's currently having money problems because his wife has left him and has taken half his practice after discovering he's having gay relationships. Terry spoke with Sterling K. Brown in January.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

TERRY GROSS: Sterling K. Brown, welcome to FRESH AIR. So happy to have you on the show.

STERLING K BROWN: Terry, thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted to be here.

GROSS: Did you experience any of the same type of preconceptions about what it means to be authentically Black in your personal life or in your acting career?

BROWN: Absolutely. I found it definitely when I got to Hollywood in the early 2000s, that the idea of being intelligent was something that I needed to shed. Many casting directors'd be like, he's got this smart-guy thing. If he can lose that, then he'll be much more castable. I think that, similar to what you were saying in your intro with regards to the kinds of stories that folks were willing to put money into had to deal with Black folks overcoming certain adversities and dealing with certain traumas. And I think that that was also linked to a certain socioeconomic wash that they thought was appropriate for how Blackness needed to be portrayed in order to be, quote-unquote, "authentic."

GROSS: When you were an economics major and then you interned at the Federal Reserve, did you want to be in business or economics?

BROWN: Yes. I think at that point in time in my life, Terry, the most important thing was being able to pour back into my community in a way that was substantial. And the only way that - the primary way that felt most substantial was through financial resources. So my goal was to make money. I felt like my mom sent me to this fancy college prep school, and I got into Stanford University. I felt like the most important thing that I could do to show my appreciation is make sure that I was able to be a contributing member of the family, a contributing member of the community in terms of financial resources.

So I said, what better way to make money than to be an economics major, learn what money does and how I can make more of it, right? And what I found through my first year at Stanford and through this internship at the Federal Reserve Bank, was that while I was good with numbers, I wasn't really interested or passionate about the inner workings of what it took to make money. Like, money in and of itself wasn't a driving force for me that motivated me to continue - I couldn't see a life just making money if there was - if I wasn't doing something that excited me or ignited me in a more passionate, spiritual, holistic sort of way.

GROSS: OK. So you found the passion in acting.

BROWN: Yeah.

GROSS: But this reminds me of a line that you say in "American Fiction." So, you know, your brother, the main character in the story...

BROWN: Yeah.

GROSS: ...Who's the novelist who can't get published - you say to him, like, you know me and your sister, like, we're doctors. We save people. Like, what can you do?

BROWN: (Laughter).

GROSS: Revive a sentence? And so that reminds me...

BROWN: Yeah.

GROSS: ...Like, did you worry, like, OK, so I'm not going to give back to my community through learning about economics and money. What will being an actor give back to my community? Like, what meaning...

BROWN: Great question.

GROSS: ...Does that have in the larger world?

BROWN: Great question. And it's something that I thought about for a while. And so, when I told my mom that I was going to change my major, I knew that she would probably have some questions for me in terms of why I wanted to do it. But most importantly, I had to let her know that I had prayed about it, and I said, yes, ma'am, I had, and I felt led. And that gave her permission to give me permission to dive into it without any sort of regrets or second-questioning.

GROSS: I want to talk with you about the role that you got your first Emmy for. And that's the role of Christopher Darden in "The People V. O.J. Simpson," which was the first season of "American Crime Story."

BROWN: Yes.

GROSS: You won an Emmy in 2016. You were - you know, Darden was one of the prosecutors, one of the two prosecutors. And he was portrayed by O.J. Simpson defenders, by people who thought O.J. was innocent, as having the job so that the prosecution could present a Black face.

BROWN: Correct.

GROSS: But Darden really, I think, deeply believed in O.J.'s guilt. So I want to play a clip from the closing argument that you make in "The People V. O.J. Simpson."

BROWN: OK.

GROSS: So here we go.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE PEOPLE V. O.J. SIMPSON: AMERICAN CRIME STORY")

BROWN: (As Christopher Darden) Ladies and gentlemen, to grasp this crime, you must first understand Mr. Simpson's relationship to his ex-wife, Nicole. It was a ticking time bomb. The fuse was lit in 1985, the very year they were married. Officers responded after Mr. Simpson beat Nicole and took a baseball bat to her Mercedes. Then in 1989, Nicole had to call 911 again, fearing for her life. When officers arrived, Nicole ran towards them yelling, he's going to kill me. He's going to kill me. She had a black eye, a cut forehead, swollen cheek. In her torn bra, Nicole pleaded with the officers. You've come up here eight times. You never do anything about him.

And they want to tell you that the police conspired against Mr. Simpson. This case is not about the N-word. It is about O.J. Simpson and the M-word - murder. Now, I'm not afraid to point to him and say he did it. Why not? The evidence all points to him. In February 1992, Nicole filed for divorce. She was running away from the man who said he'd kill her. She saw the explosion coming. Why else fill a safe deposit box with threatening letters from the defendant, a will and police photos of past beatings. She knew that the bomb could go off at any second. And then it did.

GROSS: Now I'm going to skip ahead to the end of your closing argument.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE PEOPLE V. O.J. SIMPSON: AMERICAN CRIME STORY")

BROWN: (As Christopher Darden) He's a murderer. And he was also one hell of a great football player. But he's still a murderer.

GROSS: When I saw the series, I thought, oh, you look so much like Christopher Darden.

BROWN: (Laughter).

GROSS: And it was just - you're so good in it.

BROWN: Thank you.

GROSS: You were in college at Stanford during the trial. What did you think of O.J. at the time? Did you think he was guilty or innocent?

BROWN: I'm going to be honest and say, like, it was a second consideration. It wasn't the first thing on my mind. I think that was sort of what a lot of us were experiencing - was that we wanted the criminal justice system to work in favor of someone who looked like us because we were accustomed to it working against us. But in terms of, like, seeing someone beat the system who doesn't typically beat the system, I think that was the driving factor, at least for me, in terms of why I rejoiced in his innocence at the time, in the not guilty verdict, right?

And it was such a strange thing to step into, Terry, having been so pro-O.J. and anti-Darden as a young person, to have an opportunity to step into that other person's shoes and experience life from their perspective. And it was - me and my friend Sarah Paulson had the best time on that show because she would read Marcia's book. I would read Chris' book. We would read excerpts to one another. We would go over the evidence, and the evidence is pretty overwhelming. I'll say this, that...

GROSS: She was the main prosecutor and your partner in the trial.

BROWN: Correct.

GROSS: So what changed your mind? Was it stepping into Christopher Darden's role, you know, becoming him for the series, or was it examining the facts more closely?

BROWN: Yes. That's yes to both of them. The DNA evidence is overwhelming. My perspective as a human being has shifted in terms of - also in terms of playing Christopher Darden, like, who was the voice for the people who were murdered? They don't have anyone to speak for them. And so someone has to do it, right? Even getting into Darden's book, in terms of being a prosecutor, he's like, we need to have a Black presence in all facets of law enforcement, whether that is as police, whether that is as prosecutors, as defense attorneys. Like, a presence in all of those things means that we can work from the inside. And I think that that's sort of an admirable perspective that he has on how law enforcement can work at its best.

BIANCULLI: Sterling K. Brown speaking to Terry Gross in January - more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF LAURA KARPMAN'S "(LAURA'S) FEVER DREAM")

BIANCULLI: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Sterling K. Brown, recorded in January. The Oscars are next month, and Brown is nominated for a best supporting actor Academy Award for his work in the movie "American Fiction."

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

GROSS: So let's talk a little bit about "This Is Us." And this is a series - this was a series, an incredibly popular series, about three siblings. And the white mother was pregnant with triplets.

BROWN: Yeah.

GROSS: But only two children survive. So the father, who's also white, decides - like, he'd planned on taking home three babies, and that is what he's going to do.

BROWN: Yes, ma'am.

GROSS: So he adopts a baby born the same day who is left at the door of a firehouse. Now, that baby is Black. So you're the adult version of that Black baby who grew up in the white family. So you're set apart from the family in two ways. You're the only Black person in the family. And you're only - you're the only sibling who's not a twin.

BROWN: Yeah.

GROSS: In part of the series set in the present, you're married to a Black woman. You have two children and later adopt a third. So I want to play a scene from the first episode. You've been searching for your biological father, and you finally found where he lives. So you go - you drive over there. You bang on his door. And as soon as you - as soon as your biological father opens the door, you make a little speech. So let's start with the banging on the door.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THIS IS US")

BROWN: (As Randall Pearson, banging on door.)

RON CEPHAS JONES: (As William Hill) Yeah. Yeah. Stop all that banging. And I heard you the first time - banging on the door. Who the hell is...

BROWN: (As Randall Pearson) My name is Randall Pearson. I'm your biological son. Thirty-six years ago, you left me at the front door - but now, hold on. Just let me say this. Thirty-six years ago, you left me at the front door of a fire station. Don't worry. I'm not here because I want anything from you. I was raised by two incredible parents. I have a lights-out family of my own. And that car you see parked out in front of your house cost $143,000, and I bought it for cash. I bought it for cash because I felt like it and because I can do stuff like that. Yeah. You see; I turned out pretty all right, which might surprise a lot of folks, considering the fact that 36 years ago, my life started with you leaving me on a fire station doorstep with nothing more than a ratty blanket and a crap-filled diaper. I came here today so I could look you in the eye, say that to you and then get back in my fancy-ass car and finally prove to myself and to you and to my family who loves me that I didn't need a thing from you even after I knew who you were.

JONES: (As William Hill) You want to come in?

BROWN: (As Randall Pearson) OK.

GROSS: I love how that ends.

BROWN: (Laughter).

GROSS: So the father is played by Ron Cephas Jones, who died a few months ago. But I love how you casually - how he casually invites you in after this long, negative harangue about him. And you just say, OK.

BROWN: (Laughter) That's a good term.

GROSS: Talk about deciding how to play that and whether you talked about how to play those final notes, whether you talked about it with Ron Cephas Jones.

BROWN: So in that scene, I remember thinking that - what I understood from reading the pilot of the show and what was very sort of surprising in terms of how it landed on people, ultimately, was that it made me laugh from beginning to end. And so I was always sort of focused on, like, the amount of light that the show had. And so when people talk to me about it, they're always talking about the tears that the show caused. But I think both of those things are true. So I felt like in that scene, like, you have to be able to - you can't live too much in one tone. Otherwise, the show becomes monotonous. So you're able to go in and you give this man the piece of your mind. But at the same time, all you really want is to be in relationship. And so you see that front-facing anger towards this man. But really, what he wants is to be understood, to understand why he left in the first place and ultimately to be loved.

GROSS: So Ron Cephas Jones, who was in that scene with you, your biological father in the series - he died a few months ago. And Andre Braugher, who you also work with - and he died at the end of 2023. And then you also worked on "Black Panther," and you knew Chadwick Boseman, who died of cancer at a young age...

BROWN: Yeah.

GROSS: ...Shocking everybody 'cause he didn't make it public. I'm wondering if that made you think about your own mortality.

BROWN: Yes. First of all, yes. And I would say even predating all of those beautiful souls transpiring was my own father, who passed away at the age of 45. And so I've thought about it since then, when I was only 10 years old. And my brother and I will have this conversation. My brother is 14 years older than me, so he's 61 now. And he'll always say that, you know, no Black men in our family have lived beyond age 65.

And I remember thinking that, like, that may be true for them, but it does not have to be true for us. And so I've been very conscientious in terms of health and lifestyle choices that I try to make for myself to be here for as long as possible. I have two beautiful boys - Andrew, 12, Amare, 8 - and I want to be here to experience and enjoy them as much as possible. And beyond them, I'm looking forward to - if they, indeed, have children - to being able to enjoy and experience those young people, as well.

GROSS: You know, one of the focal points of "This Is Us" is the loss of the father. So much of the story is flashing back to the impact of the father and the father's death on the three siblings' lives.

BROWN: Yeah.

GROSS: So I want to mention another parallel between your life and your character Randall's life in "This Is Us." Randall decides since he was adopted, he's going to kind of pay it back and adopt a girl. And the person who he adopts is in her teens, and her mother is addicted to drugs, and that's why she needs a home. And, you know, your mother adopted two children when you were in college. Were they teenagers, too? And why did your mother decide to adopt two children at that stage in her life?

BROWN: Good question. They were not teenagers. They were babies.

GROSS: Oh, OK.

BROWN: And so my Aunt Vera, who I adore - she's always - my mom's little sister was the collector of things in her family's life - like, pets and stuff - and would be like, she got a new cat. She got a new dog. But my Aunt Vera was also dealing with substance abuse issues at that particular time in her life. So she would get a dog - go to the Humane Society, get a dog, get a cat or whatever. And then she would be gone for a while, so then that dog or cat became somebody else's. My aunt was also fostering my little brother, Robert, who is now 25 or 26 years old - just had a birthday. And she was fostering, and then she went missing for a period of two weeks. She had dropped the - my little brother off at my mom's house. And my mom called the social worker after a day and said, listen. I want you to know this little boy is here with me. Social worker came to the house and said, are you OK to keep him? And my mom said, yes, absolutely. So then my mom became the foster parent for my little brother Robert.

Then the birth mother for Robert, who was dealing with substance issues herself, was pregnant with twins, my little sister Ariel and my little sister Avery. And the social worker said, would you be willing to take on these twins as well? And my mom said yes. Now, I don't mention my little sister Avery that much because early on in her life, she passed away from SIDS. And it was very difficult for my mom. She was like - why would God bring these children into my life to have one of them pass away? - and for a minute was wondering whether or not she would wind up keeping them. But after a moment of just saying, like, my life is more full and rich with them in it than without them, she decided to continue fostering, and then another two years later, wound up going through the formal adoption process. And so my brother Robert and my little sister Ariel have been with us for 25 and 23 years now. And my little sister Avery, similar to - Kyle is the young man's name in "This Is Us," the third of the triplets that didn't make it - went on to sing with the angels.

GROSS: That's quite a story.

BROWN: Yeah. I have quite a mom. I have to say that, too. She's an extraordinary human being.

GROSS: There's so much that you must have related to in "This Is Us."

BROWN: Oh, yeah.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: Thank you so much for coming to our show. It's really been great to talk with you.

BROWN: Terry, the pleasure has been all mine. Thank you for having me, and I look forward to doing it again.

GROSS: Me too.

BIANCULLI: Sterling K. Brown speaking to Terry Gross in January. He's nominated for a best supporting actor Oscar for his performance in the movie "American Fiction." Coming up, another of this year's Oscar nominees, Colman Domingo, star of the movie "Rustin," about civil rights leader Bayard Rustin, and Justin Chang reviews the new movie "Drift." I'm David Bianculli, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. Actor Colman Domingo has been nominated for an Oscar for his title role in the film "Rustin," the biopic about civil rights leader Bayard Rustin. Rustin was the chief organizer of the 1963 March on Washington, in which Martin Luther King gave his "I Have A Dream" speech. The march drew about 250,000 people from around the country, and it was Rustin who oversaw the planning and logistics. It was Rustin who also introduced the idea of passive resistance to Martin Luther King. But Rustin was gay, and in 1963, several civil rights leaders feared that his homosexuality could discredit Rustin, the march and the larger movement. For that and other reasons, Rustin was forced to remain in the background.

President Obama did his part to credit Rustin in 2013 by posthumously awarding him the Presidential Medal of Freedom. The film "Rustin" was produced by the Obamas' production company, Higher Ground. It was directed by George C. Wolfe. Rustin (ph) also recently played Mister in the new film adaptation of "The Color Purple" and won an Emmy for his performance in the series "Euphoria." Terry Gross interviewed Colman Domingo last December.

Let's start with a scene from "Rustin." Bayard Rustin knows there's pressure on him to resign from any role in the march and to resign from the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, which was led by King, played by Aml Ameen. Rustin tries to convince King that the movement should resist the threats of blackmail or smear campaigns targeting Rustin's homosexuality.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "RUSTIN")

COLMAN DOMINGO: (As Bayard Rustin) Each of us are taught in ways both cunning and cruel that we are inadequate, incomplete. And the easiest way to combat that feeling of not being enough is to find someone we consider less than - less than because they are poorer than us or because they're darker than us, or because they desire someone our churches and our laws say they should not desire. When we tell ourselves such lies, start to live and believe such lies, we do the work of our oppressors by oppressing ourselves. Strom Thurmond and Hoover don't give a [expletive] about me. What they really want to destroy is all of us coming together and demanding this country change. Are they expecting my resignation?

AML AMEEN: (As Martin Luther King Jr.) Some are, yes.

DOMINGO: (As Bayard Rustin) Then they're going to have to fire me because I will not resign. On the day that I was born Black, I was also born a homosexual. They either believe in freedom and justice for all, or they do not.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

TERRY GROSS: Colman Domingo, welcome to FRESH AIR. You're terrific in this movie, and I would be shocked if you were not nominated for an Oscar.

DOMINGO: Oh, Terry, thank you so much for having me. That means the world. Thank you.

GROSS: You know, I knew so little about Bayard Rustin. I grew up with his name. I heard his name. But he was, like, a guy in the civil rights movement. That's about all I knew about him. What did you know before you were asked to do the movie?

DOMINGO: I knew a little bit more than most people, and I think any of the listeners out there will question why they didn't know about him. He was all but erased in the history books. I stumbled upon him - I was a student at Temple University in Philadelphia, and I joined the African American Student Union in my junior year, and I think we were just having a discussion about the civil rights movement and some of its leaders. And then they were describing Bayard Rustin. And Bayard - the more that someone described him, I became more fascinated - the fact that he was a Quaker and from West Chester, Penn., that he was - he played the lute, and he sang Elizabethan love songs. He was a star athlete. He staged, you know, sit-ins and protests when he was a teenager. And he organized the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom. I was, like, wait, what?

GROSS: (Laughter) Yeah.

DOMINGO: How come we don't know about this person? This is a person of such size and someone who seems to be full in their experience in the world. How is it possible that he's been erased from history? But, of course, I understood - once I found that he was openly gay, I understood exactly why.

GROSS: And did you know at that point that you were gay?

DOMINGO: Did I know at that point that I was gay? I knew. I think I always knew. I grew up in inner city West Philadelphia. And, you know, you - I think people know. You know. But then I was coming to terms with my own sexuality probably at the same time that I had that spark of understanding who Bayard Rustin was in the world. And I think I sort of maybe quietly and privately looked at Bayard Rustin as a North Star, someone who not only was true to himself and his experience and his sexuality, but with limitless possibilities of what he could do, what he could be. He didn't marginalize himself. And so I must have downloaded that information in some way, shape or form, and that's sort of helped me live my life completely and wholly. Now I'm 54 years old, and I think he was very purposeful to me at a young age.

GROSS: So who did you talk to? There're still some contemporaries of Bayard Rustin's who are alive, who worked with him on the March on Washington. Were you able to talk with any of them?

DOMINGO: Oh, absolutely. I was able to talk to in particular, Rachelle Horowitz, who's featured in the film, played by Lilli Kay. Rachelle Horowitz and I - we actually have a text feed. We - she texts me pretty much every day now. I think we just really share a kindred spirit. And so I'm able to ask her private questions, things that, like, maybe have helped inform some of my choices but also things that may not have. I just wanted to know the soul of this guy. And I literally was just at Walter Naegle - at his apartment, which was he and Bayard's apartment. He still lives in the very same apartment, and...

GROSS: They were a couple for about 10 years, from 1977 until..

DOMINGO: Yeah, until Bayard's passing.

GROSS: ...Bayard Rustin's death. Yeah.

DOMINGO: Yeah. And Walter Naegle and I had lunch. It was the first time I went over to Bayard's apartment, and it looked like time stood still. It was amazing. Walter Naegle has been the keeper of Bayard's legacy. And there's all this religious sculpture and art and books and records and walking sticks 'cause Bayard Rustin was a collector of everything. He - wherever he traveled, he got a lot of stuff.

GROSS: Now, the woman who you mentioned, Rochelle - what was her role in the march?

DOMINGO: Her role in the march - she organized transportation...

GROSS: Oh, her. OK, yeah.

DOMINGO: ...For the March on Washington. And she was only - she was 19, 20 years old.

GROSS: What did you do to try to get his voice and his way of speaking? He had a very formal way of speaking, I think.

DOMINGO: Well, it was formal, but it was also - he created it (laughter).

GROSS: He created his accent, right?

DOMINGO: Oh, yeah. He created his accent. He - as I was doing research and I was, you know, finding any materials that I can find of interviews, debates, you name it, I noticed he had sort of a somewhat Mid-Atlantic standard accent, very much akin to like, Katharine Hepburn or Betty Davis. And at times it would sound a bit more British, and at times it was sort of fall away. And I was like, wait a minute, this guy is from West Chester, Pa.

GROSS: (Laughter).

DOMINGO: I'm from Philadelphia. We don't sound like that.

GROSS: Yeah, they're close to each other. They're very close to each other, yeah.

DOMINGO: Yeah, pretty close to each other. So I was like, something's going on there. And I asked Rachelle Horowitz. I said, well, where'd that accent come from? And she said, well, he made it up. And I thought, wait, what? He made it - who makes up an accent? Well, this guy does, which is brilliant. But he made it up for a couple reasons, one in particular is that he had a speech impediment. He used to stutter, so he would do work to make sure he was clear in his language. And he would also heighten it because he was a bit of - he just was obsessed with anything British. That pitch of his voice in the march is even fuller than actually - really, I mean, it was even higher-pitched. (Impersonating British accent) It was a bit more like up here. And he would do - you know, flourish it a bit more up here, even more so.

I was trying to find ways - how he used it in different scenes, whether he was with, you know, members of the NAACP or when he was just in private, and then when it fell away, when he was a bit more vulnerable. So I had to figure out how to calibrate it for a film. But in reality, it was all over the place. In every recording, it's something else.

GROSS: Now, you mentioned he had a stutter. You had a lisp when you were young.

DOMINGO: I did.

GROSS: Did you have a stutter, too?

DOMINGO: No. You did your homework (laughter). I did. I had a lisp. I had speech classes up until I was about 11 or 12 years old where I would have to go into - with a speech therapist in school and dentalize my T's and S's and X's and just really learned how to use my teeth and my tongue. Because I was an avid reader - I read everything - but I think it just gave me more confidence to have a love for language. I think that's where my love for language started - and speaking. Again, we have a similarity in that way, me and Bayard, where we had something to overcome when it comes to language. And I think it's made us - I don't know. I love speaking. I'm not afraid of coloring my words.

GROSS: Well, that's probably really good training for theater, but also really good training for learning how to speak differently, like, learning how to speak like Rustin, because you learned how to speak without your lisp.

DOMINGO: Yeah. And I also had - when I was portraying Rustin, I had to wear prosthetics for my upper teeth because he had...

GROSS: Yeah. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah.

DOMINGO: Because he had three teeth out. So that was also something - I had to put those prosthetics in at least an hour and a half before. So usually, when we get to set, I put them in immediately. And I would start working with my mouth to make - because Bayard speaks a lot and he speaks with alacrity (laughter). And he's got a lot to say. So that was a great challenge. But I think it also gave me a slight lisp like he had, which was pretty awesome.

GROSS: Oh. Yeah, I was wondering about those teeth. He got his teeth knocked out when...

DOMINGO: In 1942, yeah.

GROSS: Yeah, when he refused to move to the back of the bus.

DOMINGO: Yeah, when he was one of the first people doing these bus protests, you know, before Rosa.

GROSS: So I was wondering, like, how you - I was thinking you didn't have your teeth pulled, I was hoping you didn't (laughter).

DOMINGO: (Laughter) No, but people keep asking that. I'm like, I am not that method actor.

GROSS: Yeah, I'm hoping.

DOMINGO: I'm not that insane.

GROSS: When you were doing, like, speech therapy to overcome your lisp and you learned how to, like, pronounce your T's clearly and your S's, and you learned to, like, really clearly enunciate...

DOMINGO: Yes.

GROSS: Were you considered phony when you started speaking that way?

DOMINGO: No, I wasn't. I think - at least I don't think I was, because I would say things like - I would go (mimicking lisp) boxes, you know? And I would have to just, like, dentalize and keep that tongue behind the teeth - boxes, boxes, boxes. You know, it's funny, I still warm up - very much when I do my warmups in the morning before I'm acting, I warm my whole mouth up because it's just a habit that I need to do to make sure my mouth is operating and doing the thing I need it to do. But I think, every so often, I feel like even if you've gone through any sort of speech therapy, at times you can hear it slip, once in a while. It's ingrained in some way, although we do the work to overcome it.

GROSS: Can you share some of what your vocal warmup is like?

DOMINGO: Sure (laughter). Let's see. I would start by going - I love to do things with T's and with language. I would say one fat hen, one fat hen, a couple of ducks, three brown bears. Four slippery sliders. Five freakish felines freaking frantically. Six Sicilian sailors sailing the seven seas. Simple - seven simple - see, that's the hardest one.

GROSS: (Laughter).

DOMINGO: Seven simple Simons sitting on a stump. Eight egotistical egotists eagerly echoing egotistical ecstasies. Nine nimble Nicks nibble, nibble nuts, not on a cigarette's butt (laughter).

GROSS: That's great. Did you make those words up? Did you make those phrases up?

DOMINGO: No, I didn't make those phrases up. They came from - you know, it's all these theater games. Some teacher taught me that years ago, but it really opens your mouth up. And, you know, also, you know, the (vocalizing). You know, you get your nasal passages open, you get your ping sound. So if I'm working onstage, I want to make sure that I'm supporting my voice and that somebody can hear it in the 1,000th seat on Broadway, you know?

BIANCULLI: Colman Domingo speaking to Terry Gross last December. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

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BIANCULLI: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview from last December with Colman Domingo. He's nominated for a Best Actor Oscar for his performance in the title role of "Rustin." The movie is streaming on Netflix. Domingo also plays Mister, the abusive husband in the new film adaptation of "The Color Purple."

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GROSS: So you are really at an incredible point in your career now. Like, it seemed like you were really at a turning point about 13, 15 years ago. I mean, you were in the off-Broadway, then Broadway musical "Passing Strange," which was adapted - it was filmed by Spike Lee and shown on public television. You were in "The Scottsboro Boys," a Kander and Ebb musical. And then you ended up bartending again and thinking that...

DOMINGO: Yeah.

GROSS: You had studied photojournalism, and you're thinking, well, maybe I'll just go into doing headshots for...

DOMINGO: Yeah.

GROSS: ...People in movies and TV. And then you got a part on "Fear The Walking Dead," and that turned things back around again. But here you are in, like, two of the biggest end-of-the-year movies. And you're in your - you're 54 now, right?

DOMINGO: Yeah.

GROSS: Yeah. So what's it like for you to be in this totally different professional space right now in your life after almost giving it up a few years ago?

DOMINGO: Yeah. You know what? I've been working now for - what? - 33 years. And I think I made a commitment early on that it was the life of an artist that - I always thought that I was successful if I just got paid for doing what I love. And I was just committed to the work. And so even when I started out in, you know, educational theater tours and also, you know, off-Broadway, regional theater - I performed in probably at least 50 regional theaters around the country. I have off-Broadway credits - you name it. Just - I just wanted to work and do good work, though, being very specific about being useful with work.

And so by the time I finished "The Scottsboro Boys" in London in 2013, I thought this was everything I wanted to do. I literally was nominated for an Olivier. And then I came back to New York, and I was being offered these, auditions - not even offers auditions - for, like, you know, under five. In our business, it's, like, under five lines. And I just thought, I don't think I'm being used properly. And I think it's time to do something else. And I went home one day after a series of disappointments. And one in particular was I auditioned for "Boardwalk Empire" to play the host of a club. And the casting director brought me in. She said, oh, you're perfect for this. You're perfect. We need a song and dance man. We need a charismatic guy to be the host of this club, Chalky's club. And I thought, oh, great, wonderful. I auditioned for it. They love it. They call me in for a producer session. I go in there. I kill it.

So I go to the gym. And I'll never forget this day. And my agent calls, and she says, Colman - I thought, here, this is it. This is something, something. I need something. She says, Colman, hi. She said, I just heard back from "Boardwalk Empire." I was like, OK. And she said, they loved you. OK. Casting loved you. Producers, directors - everyone loved you. You were great. And they wanted to say thank you and all your work. I said, OK. And she said, but unfortunately, one of the researchers poked their head up and said, oh, but did you know that hosts of these clubs were all light-skinned...

GROSS: Oh.

DOMINGO: ...At that time?

GROSS: You're kidding.

DOMINGO: And I literally screamed in this gym. And I burst into a puddle of tears after screaming. And my agent was so upset. She's like, oh, my God, Colman, where are you? Where are you? Where are you? I said, I can't take this anymore. I can't do it. And as I was processing that, my dear friend Daniel Breaker - I was telling him this. I said, I'm done. He said, OK. He said, you know, my managers have been wanting to meet with you for years. I said, no, no, no, I just got rid of my manager. I'm going to wrap things up. He said - he talked to them. He said, they really just wanted to meet with you once. I said, OK, for you.

So I go into this meeting. And I have my arms folded. And I know I had a bit of an attitude. I wasn't the bright, fuzzy, warm person that I think I know myself to be. I sat there. And I said, well, this is what I do. I do this, this, that and the other, blah, blah, blah. I think - I don't know. I'm done with this. And they were like, well, we would love to work with you. I said, well, how about we give it six months and see? We can see. And then my very first audition with this new agent, who I'm still with and the new managers was for "Fear The Walking Dead" and also the Baz Luhrmann show "The Get Down." I booked both roles off of self tapes. And I realized at that point, you know, I was with an agency. They were - she was lovely and wonderful, but I guess they had no access. So my tapes were not being seen. I think none of my work's being seen for years.

GROSS: Oh, wow.

DOMINGO: I think I didn't have access. But suddenly, I get series regular off of one self-tape audition. So it reinvigorated my faith in what I had to give. And "Fear The Walking Dead" really changed my life. It gave me - it set me up differently in this world. And now I feel very peaceful, actually. I feel that I'm being seen the way that I see myself.

GROSS: I'm happy for you. And I want to congratulate you on the success you're having now, between the Emmy for "Euphoria" and your two new movies, "Rustin" and "The Color Purple." Congratulations.

DOMINGO: Thank you, Terry. This has been really wonderful.

BIANCULLI: Colman Domingo, speaking to Terry Gross last December. He's nominated for an Oscar in the best actor category for his starring role in "Rustin." The Academy Awards are March 10. For longer versions of today's interviews, visit the FRESH AIR website.

Coming up, Justin Chang reviews "Drift," a new independent film now in theaters. This is FRESH AIR.

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DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. In the new independent drama "Drift," Cynthia Erivo plays a West African refugee struggling to survive in Greece after fleeing from tragedy back home. It's the latest movie from the Singaporean writer-director Anthony Chen, and it's now playing in theaters. Our film critic Justin Chang has this review.

JUSTIN CHANG, BYLINE: If you were watching the Super Bowl the other night, you might have seen the just-released trailer for the upcoming movie adapted from the Broadway musical "Wicked." Whether it turns out to be any good or not, I'm curious if for no other reason than the chance to see Cynthia Erivo in a leading role. Not every actor can hold her own opposite wall-to-wall CGI, with or without witchy green makeup. But after her magnetic performances in thrillers like "Bad Times At The El Royale" and "Widows" and her steely groundedness as Harriet Tubman in the drama "Harriet," I like Erivo's odds.

Her latest impressive showcase can be found in the independent drama "Drift," in which she plays a Liberian refugee named Jacqueline. We first see Jacqueline sitting quietly on the shore of an unnamed Greek isle. She keeps to herself even as she walks along a beach crowded with tourists, strolls past open air markets and sips coffee at an outdoor cafe. The scenery is gorgeous, but Jacqueline seems blind to its beauty. We don't yet know what she's been through, but the restrained anguish of Erivo's performance suggests the very worst. For food, Jacqueline subsists on sugar packets and tries to sneak leftovers from restaurants. When she needs money, she wanders the beach, offering foot massages to sunbathers.

On those rare occasions when she speaks, she does so with an English accent, and the movie shows us fragmented flashbacks to a time when she was living happily in London. But in the course of those flashbacks, we learn that Jacqueline recently made a trip to see her family in Liberia and that something terrible happened while she was there. The details are kept pretty vague, but we start to piece it together once Jacqueline strikes up a conversation with an American tour guide named Callie, who's leading travelers through the ruins of an ancient mountainside village. Callie, as played by Alia Shawkat, is so friendly and easygoing that Jacqueline can't help but warm to her. But she's still pretty guarded, and at one point she lies and says she's traveling in Greece with her husband.

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ALIA SHAWKAT: (As Callie) Still here.

CYNTHIA ERIVO: (As Jacqueline) It's a beautiful spot.

SHAWKAT: (As Callie) We used to cycle up here to catch the sunrise before I got tired and jaded. Are you here alone?

ERIVO: (As Jacqueline) No. My husband's asleep. When we go on holiday, he gets - he sort of just collapses - somewhat of a workaholic.

SHAWKAT: (As Callie) I know this type of husband.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) Nancy wants to know if there are restrooms around, and she can't wait.

SHAWKAT: (As Callie) Unless Nancy fancies the bushes. You're welcome to join us, if you like.

ERIVO: (As Jacqueline) I will, of course, pay you.

SHAWKAT: (As Callie) No. Please just buffer me from this lot.

CHANG: "Drift" was adapted by Susanne Farrell and Alexander Maksik from Maksik's 2013 novel called "A Marker To Measure Drift." The movie was directed by the Singaporean filmmaker Anthony Chen, who years ago made the wonderful coming-of-age drama "Ilo Ilo." "Drift" is Chen's first English-language film and his first feature set outside Singapore, which is fitting for a movie about wandering in a strange land. And, indeed, "Drift" at times feels wobbly and unsure of its footing as it gradually unravels Jacqueline's story. I'm generally not an admirer of narratives as flashback-heavy as this one, in which the past keeps jutting insistently into the present. There's something a little too mechanical about the way Jacqueline's story leaps backward and forward through time.

Inevitably, the movie gets to the tragedy in Liberia itself and handles it sensitively. It's difficult to watch, but it doesn't feel exploitative. Even so, what's most fascinating about Jacqueline's journey is the part that remains unexplained. We never learn how she found her way from Liberia to Greece or if she wound up in Greece through chance or by choice. You have to wonder if Jacqueline, still in shock and unwilling to return to her former life in London, has chosen to dwell in a sort of limbo. Becoming a refugee could be her way of retreating from the world.

That makes "Drift" very different from the countless recent films that have been made about the international migrant crisis, including the documentary "Fire At Sea," the horror movie "His House" and the recently Oscar-nominated Italian drama "Io Capitano." What also distinguishes drift is the friendship that movingly develops between Jacqueline and Callie as they slowly open up to each other about their personal experiences. Erivo and Shawkat are wonderful on screen together. Even before Callie knows the full truth about what Jacqueline has been through, she seems to see and understand her in a way no one else does. "Drift" wisely avoids sentimentality here. It doesn't pretend that Jacqueline can ever be fully healed of her pain, but by the end, her eyes seem a little more open than before, as if she had finally begun to see the beauty of the world again.

BIANCULLI: Justin Chang is a film critic for The New Yorker. He reviewed the new movie "Drift." On Monday's show, the behind-the-scenes battles that have shaped the Academy Awards - a talk with New Yorker staff writer Michael Shulman, author of the book "Oscar Wars." It's about the ongoing tensions over race, gender and representation and earlier conflicts dating back to the founding of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, which administers the Oscars. I hope you can join us.

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BIANCULLI: FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support by Joyce Lieberman, Julian Herzfeld and Al Banks. For Terry Gross and Tonya Mosley, I'm David Bianculli.

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