'Jane Austen Wrecked My Life' doesn't live up to its namesake

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. Our guest is actor Mark Hamill. He's in the new movie "The Life Of Chuck," directed by Mike Flanagan, who adapted the movie from a Stephen King story. Hamill spoke with FRESH AIR'S managing producer Sam Briger. Here's Sam.

SAM BRIGER, BYLINE: You might be surprised to hear that a movie with Stephen King and Mike Flanagan's names attached to it is not a horror movie. Flanagan's best known for horror films, and Stephen King is, well, Stephen King. If it is horror, "The Life Of Chuck" is of the existential kind, asking questions like, are the length of our lives predetermined by supernatural forces? Does fate control us? Are we actually the product of someone else's imagination?

Mark Hamill plays Chuck's grandfather, Albie, a hard-drinking accountant, a kind man but haunted by his secrets. When you hear Mark Hamill's name, it's hard not to think of an epic story that took place a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, as Hamill played one of the most iconic heroes in movie history, Luke Skywalker in the 1977 film "Star Wars," a movie that changed Hollywood and the larger culture. Hamill was Luke in the original trilogy and reprised the role in the last trilogy that began in 2015.

Hamill's other big recurring role, one that he had for three decades, was as a villain. He was The Joker in "Batman: The Animated Series," part of his long career as a voice actor. He said he would stop doing the voice of The Joker, though, when the actor who played Batman, Kevin Conroy, died in 2022. This is not the first time Hamill has worked with the director of "The Life Of Chuck." He also appeared in Mike Flanagan's Netflix horror series "The Fall Of The House Of Usher" as a lawyer and fixer named Arthur Pym. Let's start with a clip from "The Life Of Chuck." Here, Albie is going over his grandson Chuck's math homework. Chuck lives with him since his parents died in a car accident. Chuck's good at math, but his passion is dancing, and Albie's about to give him some tough love.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE LIFE OF CHUCK")

MARK HAMILL: (As Albie) Some math, math that's called statistics or probability - it can tell you stuff about your future. It could tell you, for example, you're more likely to be drafted by a Major League sports team than to make a real living as a dancer. The world loves dancers. It truly does. But it needs accountants. So there's much more demand, so there's much more opportunity. I know that might hurt, but it's the truth. Math is truth. It won't lie to you. It doesn't factor in your preferences. It's pure that way. Math can do a lot of things. Math can be art, but it can't lie. So take another run at those two, because Chucko (ph), you are good. You have art in you.

BRIGER: That's a scene with Mark Hamill, our guest in the new movie "The Life Of Chuck." Mark Hamill, welcome to FRESH AIR.

HAMILL: Thank you, Sam.

BRIGER: So you've worked with Mike Flanagan before. Did he come to you asking you to play this role? Like, what did he tell you about it?

HAMILL: Well, I don't know whether it was a phone call or an email saying, I'm doing a movie based on a Stephen King novella, and I think there's something that would be good for you. So I immediately ordered it on Amazon. It's in a collection called "If It Bleeds." There's three stories. I was expecting some sort of epic, supernatural, you know, horror epic. And I was just astonished at how atypical it was for Stephen King and how Mike had never done anything quite like this. So, you know, I mean, Stephen King has done "Green Mile" and "The Body" and "Shawshank Redemption."

BRIGER: Right. He's pretty versatile. But nonetheless...

HAMILL: Yes, exactly.

BRIGER: ...He still...

HAMILL: They're both very versatile, but you would just assume that...

BRIGER: Right.

HAMILL: ...You know, the two of them together, that's what they would come up with. But I mean, I was delighted. I started reading this thing, and it's told in reverse order, as you say. And I had to tell the producers, I said, you know, I don't know how well I'm going to do when I'm supposed to go out and promote this thing because how do you describe the indescribable? My advice to people is just go. Go unprepared. Don't read reviews because there are elements that you recognize from Stephen King - you know, apocalyptic themes, a haunted room, (imitating ghost) ooh, but that's not the focus of the picture. It's about the impact on one person's life and, I don't know, just the nature of living.

BRIGER: The movie itself might be indescribable, but one thing that is describable is the mustache you have in this movie, which is...

HAMILL: (Laughter).

BRIGER: ...Like a Wilford Brimley, soup-straining...

HAMILL: Yeah.

BRIGER: ...Walrus kind of mustache. So...

HAMILL: Yeah.

BRIGER: ...Is that yours? Did you grow that thing?

HAMILL: Yes. Yes, I grew that thing, and when I found out I was going to do it, I just stopped trimming it. And when I sat down - you know, makeup and hair are critical collaborators - makeup, hair and wardrobe. And I said, just take all the color out of my hair. I want to have white hair, and they whitened out the mustache. And when I selected the rimless glasses and put them on, I looked in the mirror and went, oh, my God, I'm Geppetto.

(LAUGHTER)

HAMILL: I look just like the Disney version of...

BRIGER: Yeah.

HAMILL: ...Geppetto in "Pinocchio." But that's OK.

BRIGER: We just listened to this clip, and what the listeners aren't seeing is how this speech is going over with the young Chuck, and his eyes are as big as saucers. I mean, it's a nice speech you're making, but you're basically kind of crushing his dreams. You're like...

HAMILL: Right.

BRIGER: ...Don't be a dancer, be an accountant.

HAMILL: Right. I can relate to that.

BRIGER: Did you ever get - well, I was wondering, did you ever get that version of that speech when you were young and full of acting ambitions?

HAMILL: Are you kidding? Yeah. I'm the middle of seven children, career naval officer, and they thought I was nuts. They said, you can't be in show business. You don't - we don't know anybody in show business. We don't know anybody who knows anybody.

BRIGER: Yeah.

HAMILL: It's just ridiculous. You got to get your degree so, you know, you could be a teacher. You know, you could teach drama. No, I wasn't encouraged at all until my senior year in high school. My father got transferred to Japan. I went to Yokohama High School, and the drama teacher recognized my passion because I had, for the first time, gone to Broadway and seen several Broadway shows. I tagged along with my father on a business trip. We were living in Virginia. When he went to New York, twice I went and saw Broadway shows.

And see, the thing is, I knew in my soul very early on - I mean, like, grade school - that I wanted to be in this business. I didn't know if I was going to be an actor, but the two examples I always remember are seeing the original black-and-white "King Kong" and just being blown away, not knowing how they made dinosaurs come to life. I just thought, somebody goes to work and makes these things happen. You know...

BRIGER: Yeah, what a job.

HAMILL: ...I want a job where I bring a gorilla and dinosaurs to life. Or if I can't do it myself, I could certainly be an assistant. So I was really into that. And there was a Walt Disney program that had Clarence Nash, this distinguished gentleman with white hair, step up to the microphone, and he was the voice of Donald Duck. Now, I was probably either in kindergarten and - or first grade when I saw that. It never occurred to me, well, of course, there's got to be people doing the voices of Daffy Duck and Bullwinkle and all of that. And it really motivated me. I mean, I went to the - when I would go to record stores, I'd go to the children's album section and look on the back of, say, a Rocky and Bullwinkle album. I'd go, oh, Paul Frees, June Foray, Daws Butler, you know?

BRIGER: So you were doing research on the people?

HAMILL: Yes. Yes.

BRIGER: Yeah.

HAMILL: Because I thought, wow, I would love to be in that business. Now, the Walt Disney program was the only one on television that showed you behind the scenes how movies were made. So it made it much more real to me. You saw the camera crew and the construction work and the wardrobe and the caterers. So, I mean, as much as I was discouraged, I thought, you know, well, I'm not a bad cook. If I can't be a director or an actor, I could always cater.

BRIGER: You'll get there someway, right. Yeah.

HAMILL: Yeah, I'll get there someway because I don't have to be in the show, but I want to be near the show.

BRIGER: Right.

HAMILL: Now, mind you, this is all kept to myself because I had four sisters and two brothers that would've ridiculed me endlessly if I had been forthcoming about my intentions. But I was always that kind of - drawn that way. I'd put on puppet shows. I had a Jerry Mahoney ventriloquist dummy. Oh, yes. That was instructional in and of itself. I hosted a talent show in the sixth grade with my dummy, and as most people realize, you don't have to take responsibility for anything the dummy says.

BRIGER: Right.

HAMILL: So you could be highly critical of teachers and the cafeteria food. You just say outrageous things and blame it on the dummy. And it was very empowering to get laughter. I realized, this is what I want to do. I like being up in front of people, and I love getting laughter.

BRIGER: Well, we need to take a break here. Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, we're speaking with actor Mark Hamill. His new movie is "The Life Of Chuck," which is adapted from a Stephen King short story. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF JOHN COLTRANE QUARTET'S "OUT OF THIS WORLD")

BRIGER: This is FRESH AIR. Our guest today is Mark Hamill. He's in the new movie "The Life Of Chuck," which the director Mike Flanagan adapted from a Stephen King story.

So we talked a little bit about your childhood, but as you said, you were the middle child of seven. Your father was a career officer in the Navy, a captain. You were born in Oakland, but you moved around a lot, right?

HAMILL: Yes, I don't even remember Oakland. I was probably 6, 7 weeks when we moved. I went to nine different schools in 12 years. I was perpetually the new kid. There were advantages because I would say, OK, we're moving. What did I not like about myself where I am now? How can I improve? How can I change my friends or whatever?

BRIGER: You were that deliberate about it?

HAMILL: Yeah. I mean, I envied my cousin and many of my relatives who grew up in the same house from kindergarten to graduating high school. And some of them went away to college. Some of them went to college where they still stayed at home, which was, you know - I envied that at the time. But, you know, I look back and I think, maybe going - because since it's the Navy, you never are in Middle America. It's coast to coast, to coast, to coast, because you have to be, you know...

BRIGER: Right, near water.

HAMILL: There you go. So I would go from San Diego to Virginia, to San Jose, to Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh. And, you know, you got a great overview of how different people are. I mean, I remember making the mistakes of wearing powder blue corduroy Levi's.

BRIGER: (Laughter).

HAMILL: Which was very acceptable in southern California - to an East Coast school, and they were like, hey, look what it is. It's Surfer Joe over here, you know?

BRIGER: (Laughter).

HAMILL: I became known as Surfer Joe.

BRIGER: So you're a pariah.

HAMILL: Yes, exactly, or at least mockable.

BRIGER: Yeah. Well, you've said before that you were really like a clown as a kid. Was that like trying to get people to laugh all the time was that a way to break the ice as the perpetual new kid?

HAMILL: Yeah, to a certain extent. I mean, I know that, for instance, when we went to Japan, you rode the school bus for an hour because the high school was an hour away. And the jocks and the cool kids had the back of the bus, and the less popular and the nerds sat up front, which is where I sat. But one thing I noticed is I could get out of a bully's scrutiny or being put on the spot by a jock by making them laugh. So I did impressions, you know? I remember doing, you know, (impersonating Burt Ward) holy hole in a doughnut, Batman. (impersonating Adam West) Relax, young chum.

BRIGER: (Laughter).

HAMILL: I would do, you know, Adam West and Burt Ward. And, you know, it was fresh in their minds, even though it wasn't on in Japan. And I was immediately invited to the back of the bus to be sort of the jester...

BRIGER: Right.

HAMILL: ...For the jocks and the cool kids. But, yeah, that's a very powerful tool. And self-deprecating humor really is winning, when you can make fun of yourself.

BRIGER: Sometimes before other people can (laughter).

HAMILL: Yeah, exactly.

BRIGER: Yeah.

HAMILL: Preemptively, you know, attacking your own weaknesses.

BRIGER: So sort of the laughter that you would get being the clown, did that translate in some ways to your interest in acting?

HAMILL: Oh, I'm sure, because once you get in front of a crowd and you get the reinforcement of laughter, that they're getting the jokes, it's very empowering. I mean, I was a huge Marx Brothers fan, huge Laurel and Hardy fan, so I'd go read books about them. Or I'd look up reviews of when the Marx Brothers were on Broadway. I'd get microfiche and look up New York Times reviews and try to make it more real for myself. And so that was sort of my focus. And I was doing - if I didn't get a part in the school play, I would still - I'd do props or I'd work in the lighting booth or make posters, whatever. I mean, like I said...

BRIGER: You just wanted to be part of it.

HAMILL: Of course.

BRIGER: Yeah.

HAMILL: I mean, like I said before, I don't have to be in the show - I want to be near the show. And I was so serious about it. Towards the end, I looked at, you know, from 8 to 3 p.m. as just things that got in the way before - the main reason I was there was rehearsal (laughter), you know? That's all I looked at, you know? And I kept my grades up, but what I'm saying, my focus was totally on being in show business.

BRIGER: Mark, I thought we would start this part of the conversation with a cameo you did on "The Simpsons." You're appearing - I think it's a comic convention. You come out of a spaceship dressed like Luke Skywalker, and with a light saber, you knock over a bunch of cardboard cutouts of stormtroopers and also Wonder Woman for some reason. Let's hear the clip.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE SIMPSONS")

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) Welcome, futurists, cyberphiles, and the rest of you dateless wonders.

(CHEERING)

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) And now to push this convention into hyperspace, the man who put the star in "Star Wars," a real burr under Darth Vader's saddle, Luke Skywalker himself, Mark Hamill.

(CHEERING)

HAMILL: (As himself) Hey, thanks, everybody. You know, I'm here today as Luke Skywalker, but I'm also here to talk about Sprint. As you can see, you stand to save up to 17 cents a month over the more dependable providers.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) Aw, talk about Star Wars.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS: (As characters) Yeah.

DAN CASTELLANETA: (As Homer Simpson) You stupid nerds. He's trying to save you money at long distance.

(LAUGHTER)

BRIGER: That's Mark Hamill in "The Simpsons."

HAMILL: No, I got a call from my agent 'cause - I've got good news and bad news. The good news is they want you on "The Simpsons," which I adored at the time and was dying to get on. The bad news is you're playing yourself. No - 'cause that's the rub. You know, I've done things like, you know, they asked me to be on "Big Bang Theory," and I thought, oh, good I could play, like, I don't know, Leonard's father or, you know, somebody integrated into the series that you hadn't seen. And they said, no, they want you to play yourself, which is hard because you have to then think, well, wait a minute, who am I? I mean...

BRIGER: Yeah.

HAMILL: ...When you're playing a character, you don't have to take responsibility for anything that you say or do.

BRIGER: Right.

HAMILL: Here, you'd have to say, would I really say that? Would I - anyway, it's not as much fun. But at least on "Simpsons," I said, guys, you got to let me do something else besides myself. And so they let me play - I think his name was Leavelle, the - (as Leavelle) you lot are the lousiest bunch of recruits I've ever seen.

I was playing a Southern police officer guy that was training these guys. I - you know, I loved it. I mean, it was so much fun.

BRIGER: Well, let's use this as a segue to talk about being Luke Skywalker a little bit. I think when you auditioned for "Star Wars," you came in and didn't know what you were auditioning for, and you auditioned both for "Carrie" and "Star Wars" at the same time. Is that true?

HAMILL: Yes. The cattle call I eventually went to were actors from the ages of, like, 16 through 35, 'cause they were looking at both Luke and Han Solo. There was no script. You just met with Brian De Palma who was casting "Carrie" and sitting right next to him was George, who was casting "Star Wars." And there was no information. I mean, they just said, tell us a little bit about yourself, and I did. And then after a few minutes, they said, OK, thank you. I mean, it's what they call a cattle call, where there are hundreds of people...

BRIGER: Right.

HAMILL: ...There. And you don't read for them. They don't talk about "Carrie." They don't talk about "Star Wars." They're just getting a feel for whether you're right for something. So I didn't get called back on "Carrie," but I did get called back on "Star Wars" and eventually did a videotaped screen test. Harrison played Han Solo, and we only got about eight pages. I didn't read the whole script until I was given the part. And that's something I'll never forget, sitting down and reading that script and knowing that I had been cast. And even without John Williams' music or the special effects or anything, it read like a dream.

But it was hell at the audition 'cause I'm trying to figure out - I said, Harrison, you worked with George on "American Graffiti"? Is this like a send-up? Is this like a parody of "Flash Gordon"? He's - (impersonating Harrison Ford) hey, kid, let's just get it done, all right?

So he was no help whatsoever. Same with George. George - I asked him the same question. Are we - is this, like, a Mel Brooks version? Like a send-up? And he went, (impersonating George Lucas) well, let's just do it, and we'll talk about it later.

BRIGER: Well...

HAMILL: Translation is, let's just do it, and we'll never talk about it later. George doesn't want to talk about backstory or motivation and all that. I mean, he's a real moviemaker in the sense that he only really comes alive in the editing room. He just wants to get on film whatever it is you're working on that particular day. He doesn't want to hear about backstory and all that stuff, that actory stuff.

BRIGER: Let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, our guest is Mark Hamill. His new movie is "The Life Of Chuck." He'll be back after a short break. I'm Sam Briger, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

BRIGER: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Sam Briger. Let's get back to my conversation with actor Mark Hamill. His newest movie is "The Life Of Chuck," in which he plays a kind but haunted grandfather. The movie was adapted from a story by Stephen King. Hamill has done a lot of work both as a live action actor and a voice actor for animated projects. He is, of course, best known as Luke Skywalker from "Star Wars."

Well, it's interesting to me that reading the script, you knew that it was something special, because back then, you know, sci-fi was, I mean, I think it's fair to say, like, not super reputable. Like, they were low-budget genre movies, mostly. But you could sort of tell it was something special.

HAMILL: Oh, yeah, because first of all, I mean, it's not that - it wasn't that dry, serious, antiseptic science fiction. This was just, you know - it reminded me of "Wizard Of Oz" with a gender switch. Instead of Dorothy getting away from Kansas and meeting all these fantastic creatures, it's Luke trying to get away from the farm...

BRIGER: Right.

HAMILL: ...And having his worlds altered forever. So that's what I saw. I saw it more the fantasy side. And it was funny as hell. I mean, these robots are arguing over whose fault it is? I could tell I was the straight man to the robots. But to tell you the truth, too, between that screen test, months went by. I mean, I just assumed I didn't get it.

And then when my agent said, oh, you got it, and they're sending the script over, I'd forgotten what character I played because I figured in the test I did with Harrison in the cockpit, he was the leading man. I seemed to be his annoying sidekick. So when I read it, the title page said "The Adventures Of Luke Starkiller, As Taken From The Journal Of The Whills, Saga I: The Star Wars." And I thought, oh, well, I don't remember, but I guess Harrison is Luke. And I start reading it, and very quickly I realize, oh, wait a minute, this is through the eyes of a teenager. I must be Luke. And it was very surprising to me.

BRIGER: Well, I think we should hear a scene from the movie. This is from the beginning of the film when you're on the desert planet, Tatooine. You're living with your uncle and your aunt, who are moisture farmers. And they've just bought these two droids that you mentioned, C-3PO and R2-D2. And as thrilling as it sounds to be a moisture farmer, you're dreaming of a different kind of life.

HAMILL: (Laughter).

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "STAR WARS: EPISODE IV - A NEW HOPE")

HAMILL: (As Luke Skywalker) You know, I think that R2 unit we bought might've been stolen?

PHIL BROWN: (As Uncle Owen) What makes you think that?

HAMILL: (As Luke Skywalker) Well, I stumbled across a recording while I was cleaning him. He says he belongs to someone called Obi-Wan Kenobi. I thought he might've meant Old Ben. Do you know what he's talking about? I wonder if he's related to Ben.

BROWN: (As Uncle Owen) That wizard's just a crazy old man. Now, tomorrow, I want you to take that R2 unit to Anchorhead and have its memory erased. That'll be the end of it. It belongs to us now.

HAMILL: (As Luke Skywalker) But what if this Obi-Wan comes looking for him?

BROWN: (As Uncle Owen) He won't. I don't think he exists anymore. He died about the same time as your father.

HAMILL: (As Luke Skywalker) He knew my father?

BROWN: (As Uncle Owen) I told you to forget it. Your only concern is to prepare those new droids for tomorrow. In the morning, I want them up there on the south ridge working on those condensers.

HAMILL: (As Luke Skywalker) Yes, sir.

And by the way, I haven't heard that since I saw the movie. See, I see the movies once or twice, but I never go back and watch them again.

BRIGER: So what's it like hearing that?

HAMILL: Well, I'm reminded of all of it. And for instance, in 1997 is when he put out the special editions and rereleased them in the theater. So when Lucasfilm called and told me that, I said, oh, I'd love a copy. And when my kids heard about that they said, you're not going to go see it? I said, no, I've seen it. And I said, by the way, you've seen it more than I have on home video. I mean, they'd watch it four or five times a week. And they said, yes, but we've never seen it on the big screen. And I went, oh, now, that's really important to me. So I took them to each one. I took them to the first one, to "Empire" and to "Jedi" in a theater. And that was in 1997, and I haven't seen them since

BRIGER: You haven't seen since, wow.

HAMILL: No. You know, I have to deal with sort of disconnect because...

BRIGER: Sure

HAMILL: The fans, it's very much in the present and the future because it's an ongoing franchise.

BRIGER: So, you know, I imagine as an actor that an important part of your job and something that helps you do your job is, like, the feedback you receive from other actors in a scene, like from their energy, from their expressions. Like, you probably work off of each other.

HAMILL: Right.

BRIGER: But for you, some of your most famous dramatic scenes in the "Star Wars" movies, you're acting opposite a puppet.

HAMILL: Right.

BRIGER: And even though, you know, it's Frank Oz, great puppet master, like, was that difficult? Was it difficult to, like, stay in the moment when you're expressing yourself to Yoda, who is not a real person, of course.

HAMILL: Well, first, look - Frank Oz is so good that when I looked at Yoda and he was manipulating him, I totally believed he was real. I mean, a lot of times they would bury him out of sight, underground. You know, he had an earpiece, and I had an earpiece so I could hear what he was saying. But I just loved everything about Yoda, the talking backwards thing and just all of it. And it was kind of lonely because I think the most just pure out fun I had working on the original trilogy was when Harrison, Carrie and I were all on the Death Star running around. It was all three of us together. It was so much fun, and we enjoyed each other's company. And then in "Empire," I go away. I mean, I don't even get to keep C-3PO. I keep R2, but I go off to Dagobah. And, you know, there would be separate call sheets, you know?

BRIGER: Right.

HAMILL: On the main call sheet was Carrie and Harrison, Peter Cushing, whoever it might be. And then on my call sheet, I was the only human being.

BRIGER: (Laughter).

HAMILL: It was, actor, Mark Hamill. Role, Luke. And then it was puppets, lizards, snakes.

BRIGER: (Laughter).

HAMILL: It was all props.

BRIGER: So during the research for this, I read an interview with you from People magazine from 1981 when you were anticipating the release of the final movie in the series, "The Return Of The Jedi." And speaking for yourself, Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford, you said that once the movie comes out, quote, "we'll be grown up and free." And, you know, for better or worse, I don't think you've ever been free of "Star Wars." And I think at least one instance a director told you they didn't want to cast you because they didn't want Luke Skywalker in their movie. And this was for the film adaptation of a Broadway play, "Amadeus," that you were starring in on Broadway.

HAMILL: Right.

BRIGER: So did you hear that a lot? Did you get discouraged?

HAMILL: Well, I guess. I mean, I didn't let it overwhelm me. Milos Forman asked me to come in and read because he was casting Constanze. And so various actors would come - you know, female actors would come in and read the role. And after, I don't know, four or five auditions, I said, You know, Milos, I've done this role. I did the first national tour, and then I did it on Broadway. Any chance that you consider me? He said, (impersonating Milos Forman) no, no, no, no one is to be believing that the Luke Skywalker is the Mozart. And I thought, well, at least, you know, he's forthcoming about that. And I love the movie, and, you know, I didn't resent it. It's just that's just - that's life.

BRIGER: If you're just joining us, we're speaking with actor Mark Hamill. He's in the new movie "The Life Of Chuck," which is adapted from a Stephen King story. More after a break, this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

BRIGER: This is FRESH AIR. Our guest today is Mark Hamill. He's in the new movie "The Life Of Chuck," which the director Mike Flanagan adapted from a Stephen King story.

You did a lot of voice acting, and I know you did voice acting before "Star Wars," but did voice acting provide you with an opportunity to kind of avoid some of those issues with typecasting that you were facing?

HAMILL: Absolutely. Now, originally, I went to New York and did theater 'cause I knew I could do - I wanted to get character parts and be seen in a way that people would not expect to see me, and I did that. I lived there, I don't know, from '79 to around '92. I was doing theater. But when I came back and heard that they were casting the Joker, and I looked at the talent involved, this wasn't going to be the Saturday morning "Super Friends." This was going to be written in a way that wrote up to kids. So I said, I really want to get in on this. But it just so happens that they cast a Joker and decided to go another way. So they'd already filmed three episodes - I think three, maybe four - with the original actor. And when I went into audition, you had to match the lip flaps, you know, which is almost a different skill.

BRIGER: Well, let's hear a little bit of your Joker. This is from actually a movie called "Batman: Mask Of The Phantasm." And this is a scene between the Joker and a gangster named Salvatore Valestra. And when I first heard this, I was like, oh, that guy's doing a pretty good Abe Vigoda impression. But... (Laughter). ...It was actually Abe Vigoda who, of course...

HAMILL: It was Abe Vigoda.

BRIGER: ...Played a different Salvatore in "The Godfather." But here, let's hear it.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "BATMAN: MASK OF THE PHANTASM")

HAMILL: (As the Joker) Have a seat, Sal. Tell me what's on your so-called mind.

ABE VIGODA: (As Salvatore Valestra) It's Batman. He's gone nuts. First, he whacked Chuckie Sol, then Buzz, and now he's after me.

HAMILL: (As the Joker) You know, I've been reading lately how old Guano Man is wound tight enough to snap. Wouldn't it be great if I'd finally driven him off the deep end (laughter)?

VIGODA: (As Salvatore Valestra) This isn't a joke. Batman's knocking us off, and you're the only one who can take him down. Look, 5 million up front with whatever you want to finish him off.

HAMILL: (As the Joker) What do I look like? Pest control?

VIGODA: (As Salvatore Valestra) Think, you fool. Once he gets me, how long till he gets you? You know what I'm talking about. Your hands are just as dirty - dirtier.

HAMILL: (As the Joker) Don't touch me, old man. I don't know where you've been. (Laughter) Oh, Sal. No one could take a joke like you. Of course I'll help you out.

VIGODA: (As Salvatore Valestra) Really?

HAMILL: (As the Joker) Certainment. No way is anybody gonna hurt my pal Sal. That's it. That's what I want to see, a nice, big smile.

BRIGER: So that's our guest Mark Hamill in "Batman: Mask Of The Phantasm" playing the Joker. So, you know, you go through a huge range of emotions in that scene. Is - can voice acting actually, like, be more tiring than live action because of that?

HAMILL: Listen, voice-over saved my life. When I got into it, I thought, where have this been all this time? I mean, first of all, a character actor is defined by the fact that you don't see the actor. You see just the character. Well, voice-over does that for everyone because you don't see the actor. And what I'm telling you is since they cast with their ears, not their eyes, you get to play a huge range of characters that you wouldn't get to play because you're not physically right. You know, I could play 6-foot-2 Mafia enforcers. I could play a German professor.

I mean, it's just a dream come true in terms of their using their imagination. If you can match the voice to what he looks like, you're home free. And I just thought, this is spectacular. I mean, it's the ultimate job in terms of - you don't have to memorize. You can just read all the lines. You don't - they don't care how you look. You can show up looking like hell. I said, I would be good never being on camera again. In fact, this might be better because, you know, you don't have to age on camera.

BRIGER: Right.

HAMILL: I'm always shocked when I see myself. I go, wow, am I old.

BRIGER: In 2015, you know, you returned to play Luke Skywalker in the last of the "Star Wars" trilogies. You were only in the first few seconds - the last few seconds of the first one, but you had quite a long story arc in the second one.

HAMILL: And then back to a cameo in the third one.

BRIGER: And then back to a cameo in the third one. You know, this character, you've been so associated with for so long, but now there were new people who were involved in creating the story of your character. First of all, did you have trepidations about doing it again, or was it hard for you to accept sort of new people's ideas about what this character was that you - that was really so close to you?

HAMILL: Well, my initial reaction is that we shouldn't do it. I mean, you can never go home again. And I was sure - I said, Harrison's not going to do it, you know? He's got so much going on. And, you know, he gets frustrated when those movies are brought up so often. So I said, I know he's not going to do it. But when I read in the press that he'd signed to do it, I thought, oh, my God, I've just been drafted, because if I say no and Harrison and Carrie come back, I'll be the most hated man in nerdom. So I thought, maybe it's fate. Maybe I should go back. So I did.

BRIGER: I'd like to just play a clip from "The Last Jedi." This is near the end of the movie. Your character, Luke, had been a recluse for years, jaded about your experiences. And even when people came to plead you to help with the rebellion, you were refusing. You finally relent. And in this scene, the rebel forces are near a complete loss. But you appear to speak with Leia, played by Carrie Fisher. And in this, you say something like, I can't save him. And you're referring to Kylo Ren, who is the son of Han Solo and Leia who has gone over to the dark side.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI")

CARRIE FISHER: (As Leia Organa) Luke, I know what you're going to say - I changed my hair.

HAMILL: (As Luke Skywalker, laughter) It's nice that way. Leia, I'm sorry.

FISHER: (As Leia Organa) I know. I know you are. I'm just glad you're here at the end.

HAMILL: (As Luke Skywalker) I came to face him, Leia, and I can't save him.

FISHER: (As Leia Organa) I held out hope for so long, but I know my son's gone.

HAMILL: (As Luke Skywalker) No one's ever really gone.

BRIGER: So that's a poignant scene now, especially because, you know, Carrie Fisher died shortly after filming this movie. And you've said that sometimes when you were feeling ambivalent about being Luke Skywalker that she would give you some tough love and be like, hey, you're Luke Skywalker - deal with it.

HAMILL: Yeah. She came to see a Broadway show of mine. And in the playbill, in my bio, I listed all my theater credits and at the end said, he's also known for a series of popular space movies. And she goes, what's the deal? How come you don't mention "Star Wars"? And I said, well, I want to focus - to show that I have a resume that includes extensive theater credits. And she said, hey, get over yourself. You're Luke Skywalker. I'm Princess Leia. Embrace it. And I kind of saw what she meant, you know, because you say to yourself, what territory do I occupy that no one else does?

So she was someone that, you know, sort of put it in perspective for me. And like I said earlier, you know, the disconnect between the current fans and myself is that for me, I had my time. And I appreciate it. And I'm always grateful for George for letting me be a part of it. But it's over. I mean, as an actor, you finish the job, you go onto the next job. You don't hang onto the prior job. So I always have to really make an adjustment when I'm talking to fans where it's very much in the present, it's very much about the future, which is fine, you know?

I mean, if it weren't for the fans, I wouldn't be here. And so I'm grateful to them. They know details I have never heard of. Somebody was asking me about, well, when you went to the Wookiees' home planet - and I said, wait a minute. Did we go to the Wookiees' home planet? Oh, well, in, you know - and they'll tell me what novel it was in. And I don't read any of the supplemental material. Like I say, it was an important part of my life that's now over.

BRIGER: Except it's not, but in some way.

HAMILL: Yes, and it never will be.

BRIGER: Yeah.

HAMILL: So I've accepted that as well, you know?

BRIGER: Well, Mark Hamill, thank you so much for coming on FRESH AIR.

HAMILL: Of course.

GROSS: Mark Hamill spoke with FRESH AIR's managing producer, Sam Briger. Hamill is in the new movie "The Life Of Chuck." After we take a break, John Powers will review the new film "Jane Austen Wrecked My Life." And we'll consider why Austen still has a place in pop culture. This is FRESH AIR.

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TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. The new French film "Jane Austen Wrecked My Life" centers on a Parisian novelist who's having trouble with her writing and her love life. Then she goes to a Jane Austen-themed writers' retreat. Our critic-at-large John Powers says that it got him thinking about the qualities that make Austen so popular.

JOHN POWERS, BYLINE: On the stock exchange of literary acclaim, reputations rise, fall, go bust and sometimes rise again. These days, few writers have a higher valuation than Jane Austen, who's gone from being merely a great novelist to becoming a marketable brand. Beyond the scads of adaptations, we've had movies titled "Austenland" and "The Jane Austen Book Club," Anne Hathaway playing the young Jane and Mr. Darcys popping up everywhere from "Bridget Jones's Diary" to the Hallmark Channel's Mr. Darcy trilogy. As I speak, the Keira Knightley "Pride & Prejudice" is enjoying a 20th anniversary rerelease. While over on "Masterpiece," that queen of British television Keeley Hawes stars as Jane's sister, Cassandra, in the series "Miss Austen."

Even France is getting into the act with the release of "Jane Austen Wrecked My Life," an amiable new romance written and directed by Laura Piani. Steep in the filmmaker's love of the writer, the movie, whose title is just a tease, embodies the pleasures and limitations of the Austen boom.

The appealing Camille Rutherford stars as 30-something Agathe, a would-be romance writer who worked at the renowned Paris bookstore Shakespeare and Company. Profoundly blocked in her writing, emotions and romantic life, Agathe spends her time hanging out with her coworker Felix - that's the amusing Pablo Pauly - a likable womanizer who's her best friend.

Agathe is headed nowhere until she gets invited to a writers retreat at the Jane Austen residency in England. There she meets - you guessed it - a grumpy, attractive man with whom she doesn't get along. His name is Oliver, and he's played by Charlie Anson, an actor who's like the house-brand version of Hugh Grant. We sense if they're destined for each other, even as we wonder whether she's better suited to Felix, with whom she shared an unexpectedly passionate kiss as she left for England.

Here, Agathe has just arrived in Britain, and Oliver is driving her to the retreat. Almost instantly, they're at loggerheads.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "JANE AUSTEN WRECKED MY LIFE")

CAMILLE RUTHERFORD: (As Agathe) So have you been working a long time for the Jane Austen residency?

CHARLIE ANSON: (As Oliver) I'm Jane Austen's great, great, great, great nephew.

RUTHERFORD: (As Agathe) Wow.

ANSON: (As Oliver) Yeah, my parents set up the Jane Austen residency, but I'm not really part of the fan club. I'm just helping out because my father recently lost his driver's license.

RUTHERFORD: (As Agathe) Right. And what do you normally do for a living, then?

ANSON: (As Oliver) I teach contemporary literature at King's.

RUTHERFORD: (As Agathe, laughing) Sorry. You teach literature, but you despise Jane Austen.

ANSON: (As Oliver) I just think her work is a little overrated.

POWERS: Poor Oliver doesn't seem to grasp that he's playing the role of Mr. Darcy. In fact, Austen is rightly admired and beloved for creating enduringly memorable heroines who were strong, smart, principled, often witty and willful. They have character. Even when they're wrongheaded, they're never trivial, especially about romance.

You see, in Austen's world, a woman's freedom to act was profoundly constrained. The choice of a man was a decision not just about chemistry, but financial security and social status. Indeed, Austen portrays the society that limits her heroines with X-ray eyes, showing us the greed, vanity and class snobbery of a rigid social order where only a few live in comfort. And Austen's consciousness is a thrillingly powerful presence. She writes like the most dazzling of her own creations, with immaculately wrought sentences, a stinging satirical eye and a sense of judgment that can be positively ruthless. There's nothing vague or wishy-washy about her.

The risk in explicitly evoking Austen is that it instantly raises our standards, and sadly Piani, like nearly all of today's Austenites (ph), can't match her model's clarity or elan. Her movie is tamer and more sentimental and utterly unconcerned with society. In Agathe, Piani replaces the brilliance and verve of Elizabeth Bennet or Emma Woodhouse with low-key neurosis, as if afraid we wouldn't like a modern woman who's sharp or sometimes unlikable. You keep waiting for Agathe to act boldly or at least say something genuinely witty.

The movie is weighed down by all its illusions and borrowings, which become a substitute for creating something new. Doing this is hardly impossible. Hollywood worked Austen territory marvelously during the '30s and '40s. Check out "The Shop Around The Corner" or "The Philadelphia Story." While over in post-war France, Eric Rohmer made a score of sharp movies about romantic desire and illusion without ever needing to resurrect Mr. Darcy for one last bout of "Pride And Prejudice."

Virginia Woolf famously wrote of Austen that, of all great writers, she is the most difficult to catch in the act of greatness. One measure of her greatness is that two centuries on, filmmakers like Piani are still so inspired by her work that they want to make their own versions. As an Austen lover myself, I understand the temptation. And anyway, better that than constantly remaking "Batman."

GROSS: John Powers is FRESH AIR's critic at large. He reviewed the new film "Jane Austen Wrecked My Life."

Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we discuss the face off between Harvard University and the Trump administration. The administration has frozen around $3 billion in Harvard grants and contracts and is trying to stop the university's ability to enroll foreign students. In response, Harvard is suing. We'll talk with Harvard law professor Noah Feldman. I hope you'll join us.

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GROSS: FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Charlie Kaier. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson (ph). Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.

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