Hats off to an illuminating new documentary about Mary Tyler Moore

TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley, and my guest today is veteran comedian Wanda Sykes. She has a new comedy special on Netflix titled "I'm An Entertainer," where she takes on everything from raising teenagers with her French wife to the dilemmas of living in a hyper-charged political climate. "I'm An Entertainer" follows Wanda Sykes' 2019 Emmy-nominated Netflix comedy special "Not Normal."

Sykes got her first big break opening for Chris Rock in the '90s, and since then, she's been nominated for 14 primetime Emmys with a win for outstanding writing for a variety or music or program for her work on "The Chris Rock Show."

Sykes has starred in dozens of television shows and films including "Curb Your Enthusiasm," "The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel," "Black-ish" and Mel Brooks' "History of the World, Part II." Some of her films include "Pootie Tang," "Monster-In-Law" and "UglyDolls."

Sykes currently stars in and is the executive producer of the Netflix show "The Upshaws." And last year, Sykes co-hosted the Academy Awards with Regina Hall and Amy Schumer. And this year she guest hosted Comedy Central's "The Daily Show." Sykes' new Netflix special, "I'm An Entertainer," debuts this week. And, Wanda Sykes, welcome to FRESH AIR again.

WANDA SYKES: Why, thank you - nice to be here. Well, that "Pootie Tang" just never goes away.

MOSLEY: Right. And I mean - and, you know...

SYKES: (Laughter).

MOSLEY: ...You always have to say "Pootie Tang." You got...

SYKES: People love saying that.

MOSLEY: ...To do a little accent to it.

SYKES: I think that's why it always ends up in my intro - 'cause people just like saying "Pootie Tang."

MOSLEY: Well, we're in an interesting time right now because I know production for "The Upshaws" has been canceled for now or postponed for now because...

SYKES: We are on a very long hiatus.

MOSLEY: Yes, because of the Writers Guild of America Labor union strike. I saw your tweet where you posted a photo of yourself from the last writers strike. I think it was 2007. And your caption said, here we go again.

SYKES: Yep.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

SYKES: Yeah.

MOSLEY: I know the industry has changed somewhat since 2007, but what are your biggest concerns right now for the writers and for the industry?

SYKES: Basically, the survival of our craft, of what we do. It - right now, like, a staff writer - there's no way they can survive unless they have another - you know, another job, something to supplement their income. And also, it's about thinking about the future. You know, it's not just us, you know, demanding that the streamers pay residuals, but it's also just the way we're doing business now is not beneficial to this career - you know, sustaining.

And we need those staff writers. Like, we have at least - Regina Hicks and I, who's also the showrunner, co-showrunner and creator of "The Upshaws," we intentionally was like, OK, look. We want some babies in the room - staff writers. We want some - we want newbies because that's how they learn. And that's - you know, and just - nothing like a great - a better feeling than watching them grow. Like, I've seen our staff writers get better each season, and - you know? And it's like, OK, yeah. They're catching on. They're getting it. And that's - it's on-the-job training.

MOSLEY: Your new special, "I'm An Entertainer," was filmed in Philadelphia, and it was the first time you'd been back out on a live show circuit since the start of the pandemic. You actually joked that catching COVID and quarantining in the guest room kind of wasn't so bad. Let's listen.

(SOUNDBITE OF COMEDY SPECIAL, "I'M AN ENTERTAINER")

SYKES: You know, first two days were a little rough. I'm isolating in the guest bedroom, you know, so my wife couldn't bother me. My kids couldn't bother me. So on that third day, I was like, f***.

(LAUGHTER)

SYKES: How can I get some of that long COVID?

(LAUGHTER)

SYKES: This agrees with me. This feels like me time.

MOSLEY: That was a clip from Wanda Sykes' new Netflix special, "I'm An Entertainer." Wanda, do you miss that me time?

SYKES: Oh, my God. I do. I really do. Like, I was telling you, I - you know, this week, I've been suffering with allergies - just - you know, just feverish and the cough that just won't stop and achy. So I took a test, and I wouldn't have been mad if it came up positive...

MOSLEY: (Laughter).

SYKES: ...To be honest with you (laughter).

MOSLEY: Peace, family. I got to go in this little guest room again.

SYKES: I wouldn't have - you know, and - even this morning, I knew I was coming here. I'm like, let me take another test just to make sure. And it's not that I didn't want to come here and do this, but, you know, my wife was asking me, like, so what are you planning on making for dinner, you know? And my daughter had a thing at school, you know, a little award ceremony I had to go to. And again, I'm just looking at that little COVID machine going, I'm - you know, I won't be mad. I won't be mad if it's positive.

MOSLEY: But see; do you feel like we can't - like, any other illness, it's like, you still got to go on with life.

SYKES: Right. Right. Yes.

MOSLEY: COVID is the only one where you can actually rest.

SYKES: Yeah. Right. Yeah. COVID shuts everything down. You just tell people, you know, you got COVID. It's over. It's a wrap. They got to leave you alone.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

SYKES: It's - you're, like, safe. You're on home base. You're safe. They can't mess with you.

MOSLEY: You have twins.

SYKES: Yes.

MOSLEY: Are they 13 years old now?

SYKES: They're 14 now.

MOSLEY: 14 now. Do they think you're funny? 'Cause that's a hard age.

SYKES: They do. They - my son thinks I'm - he thinks I'm really funny. My daughter, she's a 14-year-old girl. She doesn't - she just doesn't care.

MOSLEY: In the special, I think you said something like she's, like, Beyonce in front of you guys...

SYKES: Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...As you're walking down the street. Yeah.

SYKES: But she's super smart. And, you know, she's not going to give it up. That's what it is. She's - like, she's a little hard. She's harder to impress.

MOSLEY: In the special, "I'm An Entertainer," you talk a little about what it's like to raise white children. You joke about it. I want to play a clip of a story you tell when your son, Lucas, asked for a snake. Let's listen.

(SOUNDBITE OF COMEDY SPECIAL, "I'M AN ENTERTAINER")

SYKES: My son, Lucas, he's been begging me for a snake. Yeah. That's what he - for years - for years, a snake. Yeah. Yeah. Mommy Boo, can I please have a snake? Yeah. They still call me Mommy Boo 'cause they're racist, you know?

(LAUGHTER)

SYKES: And I'm like, Lucas, you're not getting a snake. Every Christmas, Mommy - or every birthday - can I have a snake? And I finally just snapped. I was like, look, Lucas. You're not getting a snake. And he's like, why? I said, 'cause I'm just not going to let you be that white.

(LAUGHTER)

SYKES: And then I had to break it down for him. I said, look, man. You have a Black mother, OK? Black women just don't tolerate stupid s***.

(LAUGHTER)

SYKES: I mean, getting a snake and bringing it in the house and calling it a pet. That's dumb. That's just dumb. Know what else you're not going to do? Extreme sports. You can forget about that. I ain't buying you a bike and have you up there flipping all up in the air, and - that's not the way that bike is supposed to be ridden. You ain't doing that.

(LAUGHTER)

MOSLEY: That's a clip from the Wanda Sykes Netflix comedy special "I'm An Entertainer." Wanda, there's a part in the special where you also joke that in your will, you wrote that they're going to have to change their names to Black names...

(LAUGHTER)

MOSLEY: ...In order to get an inheritance.

SYKES: Rashad and Laquisha.

MOSLEY: (Laughter) Laquisha. Name your 13-year-old Laquisha. Then I want to see what happens with her (laughter). Do you joke with them about this kind of stuff at home? Do you say this kind of stuff?

SYKES: Not really. Honestly, yeah, we don't. It's - I think the stage, for me, is my therapy session, is where I can talk about it, you know? But at home, no, we don't. We're just the family at home.

MOSLEY: You've mentioned that you're raising them in the way that you were raised in the hopes that maybe they're aware of their white privilege. How do you do that?

SYKES: Yeah. I mean, it's because I don't know any other - you know, any other way to raise them. I don't know if white people raise their kids saying, look. You know you can cut the line, right? You know, I don't - you don't say - I don't know if - is there a white handbook where - you know what I'm saying? It's like the talk where, you know, Black parents give their kids about when you get pulled over from the police...

MOSLEY: Yeah.

SYKES: ...Pulled over by the police - how to behave. You know, it's like, I'm about to give my kids that talk, and I go, wait a minute. I don't need to do this. They're white. You know, I could tell Olivia, hey; if the cops pull you over, just start crying. They'll let you go. You're white. You're a beautiful, young white girl. Just cry, and they'll let you go. That's - I mean, at least that's what I think. That's the way it works, you know?

MOSLEY: I'm talking with award-winning comedian Wanda Sykes, who has a new comedy special on Netflix titled "I'm An Entertainer." She's also starring in Mel Brooks' "History Of The World, Part II" and is the executive producer for "The Upshaws," which enters its third season this fall. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARETHA FRANKLIN SONG, "TRY MATTY'S")

MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. And if you're just joining us, I'm talking with veteran comedian Wanda Sykes, who has a new Netflix comedy special titled "I'm An Entertainer," where she takes on everything from raising teenagers with her French wife to the dilemmas of living in a hypercharged political climate.

In this latest special, you mention how you knew you were gay from the time you were in third grade, but you didn't come out to your parents until you were 40. How did you come out to them?

SYKES: I think I was having surgery, and I think they were coming to be with me for the surgery. And I just had to say, look. My roommate is not my roommate. Yeah.

MOSLEY: Was this when you were getting your uterine fibroid surgery? Yeah.

SYKES: I think so. Yeah.

MOSLEY: Yeah. Did they have an inkling?

SYKES: You would think so, but no.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

SYKES: Yeah.

MOSLEY: I've heard you lament, especially right after you got married...

SYKES: Uterine fibroid surgery. I'm going to have to check my HIPAA. How'd you get that information?

MOSLEY: 'Cause you talked about it.

SYKES: (Laughter).

MOSLEY: I would not bring up anything you didn't talk about already.

SYKES: Oh, boy. Next thing is you'll talk about my teeth cleaning.

MOSLEY: I know, right?

SYKES: I do have a - OK.

MOSLEY: You got one coming up? Yeah. But I've heard you lament, especially right after you got married, that you were upset by the perception that Black people were anti-gay. Have you felt a shift in that narrative at all since you got married? I know that was during Proposition 8. That was, like, during that big time.

SYKES: Right.

MOSLEY: And there was a lot of - there were a lot of news pieces about Black people not being in favor of it, you know?

SYKES: Right.

MOSLEY: How have you felt that shift or not?

SYKES: Oh, huge, huge shift.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

SYKES: Huge shift. And I think it starts with the church. You see - yeah, the church has become more accepted, you know, and more tolerant and - yeah, I mean, I just think it's - you just see it. You just - walking down the streets and stuff, I see, you know, just - I watched it. I felt it. I was like, wow, this is getting better - you know? - just the support and love from the community. I remember the first time, you know, I was in CVS, and this older Black woman walks up to me. She was like, Wanda. And I was like, oh, boy, what's she going to say? She says, I want to talk to you. And I was like, oh, God, she's going to hit me with this stuff. And she's like, how's your family doing? How's those kids? And it's like, oh. I mean, I literally was, like, tears in my eyes walking to my car out of there. I remember that, you know? And just like little things like that just kept happening.

MOSLEY: You know, I haven't heard the term cancel culture lately, but one thing that we do see continually happen is comedians are scrutinized and analyzed a lot more. I'm just wondering - what's accepted to joke about seems to be this moving target. And is that something that you grapple with or worry about as a comedian?

SYKES: I don't. I don't think about it. I honestly don't think about it. To me, the whole cancel culture thing and, oh, my gosh - you know, somebody said something about my show is so - she's so woke. Oh, my God. And, like, it was an insult. I'm like, when you call people woke, you're not insulting them.

MOSLEY: Right.

SYKES: We don't care. It's not - you're not insulting us. We're evolving. We're being better. We're trying to, you know, make the world better. We're trying to hold this country accountable. I mean, you know, it's - like, it's, you know - they're, you know, well, like, boo, burn. Like, you know, like it's so - it's so childish. And it's - mainly it's - people are pissed because they can't be racist - you know? - and they can't be bigots, and they can't be prejudiced. And they're upset about that. The people who are upset are people who feel like things are being taken away from them, you know, where there's - the people on the other end, we're like, you know, we want equality. We - you know, we want our rights, you know?

And so it's just funny how they think, like, oh, man, I - you can't say this anymore 'cause, you know, they'll cancel you. It's like, you can say anything you want to say. You - there's nothing stopping you from saying whatever the hell you want to say, but you just have to understand that there's - you know, there's repercussions. You - some people are going to like it, some people that don't like it. Just because people don't like what you say, it doesn't mean, oh, they're canceling you. That means - that just means they don't want to hear it. You know, they're evolving.

MOSLEY: You talk a lot about your wife, who is French. I find it so funny 'cause you always fall into this accent, and - like you're from the 1950s holding a cigarette. You know, like how they hold cigarettes, you know?

SYKES: Yeah. Right, right. And she doesn't even smoke. I just - that's just how I...

MOSLEY: Are you serious?

SYKES: No. She doesn't smoke. She goes, will you just say I don't smoke, please? I'm like, oh, it's kind of funny, though, you know? But she loves it. She loves that I talk about her, you know?

MOSLEY: You married in 2008. How did you meet?

SYKES: We met Fire Island, N.Y., on our way to Cherry Grove on the ferry. I saw her on the ferry, but then we met later - I think, like, the next day on the island. Yeah.

MOSLEY: You saw her, and you knew it was something there?

SYKES: Yeah.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

SYKES: It was like I just - I knew. I heard something. And I'm going to sound crazy here. But honestly, I heard the voice of my dead therapist. And this was the therapist that I only spoke with her on the phone. She only did...

MOSLEY: Like, phone therapy?

SYKES: ...You know, phone therapy. She only did phone therapy. So I never saw her. I have no idea what she looked like or anything. And she had passed, like, I'm going to say, at least six months or something like that. And I was on the ferry. And I looked back. And I saw this woman with - talking to a woman holding a baby. And she was playing with this baby. So I thought they were together. I thought it was, you know, a family.

MOSLEY: A family.

SYKES: I thought it was a family. And something say, Wanda, that's what you need. And I was like, you're dead. What the hell? Why are you...

MOSLEY: (Laughter) Wow.

SYKES: Yeah.

MOSLEY: You all visit France...

SYKES: Yes.

MOSLEY: ...Since your wife is French. Is there a difference or can you describe the difference between, like, French comedy and American comedy? Have you followed it? Or do you see it? Do you see those differences in what they consider funny and what you would consider funny?

SYKES: Yeah. My wife keeps - she's like, you don't get my jokes. And I was like, no, I laugh at you a lot, but it might not be when you're trying to be funny. But, you know, you make - she makes me laugh. But when she's trying to be funny and, you know - her jokes, I don't get.

MOSLEY: What kind of jokes?

SYKES: I don't understand them. I really don't. I don't - it's sarcasm but without the funny, you know? So when you - when it's sarcasm without the funny, then it's just - not mean, but it's...

MOSLEY: Snarky or rude a little bit? Does it come off that way?

SYKES: Well, no. OK, sarcasm without the funny, now it sounds believable. You know what I'm saying? Then that's like, oh, wait. You really did that? And you're like, no, I'm being - I don't understand...

MOSLEY: (Laughter) I'm just joking.

SYKES: Yeah, I'm just joking. It was like, well, you didn't do it right. You know, it's...

MOSLEY: Right, you said that too straight.

SYKES: Yeah. I don't know. It's weird.

MOSLEY: Is it true that Larry David tricked you into being on "Curb Your Enthusiasm"?

SYKES: I don't like to audition. I don't get the part if I audition. I'm the worst at auditioning. I mean, I just don't know how to do it. I'm never myself. I'm - yeah, it's awful. So my friend Sandy - she was a producer on the show at the time. And she said, look; I want you to just come over here and just meet Larry. He just wants to meet you. I'm like, all right. She said, look; we're shooting over at this car dealership. And your office is around the corner, so just come over. This would be a good time to come over. So I get to the car dealership. And I walk in. And I see, like, six other Black women sitting in this dealership...

MOSLEY: (Laughter).

SYKES: ...In chairs. And I look. And I was like, that's odd. So Black women woke up and decide they wanted a Toyota...

MOSLEY: To go to the car dealership.

SYKES: Yeah, they decided they wanted - they needed a Toyota today. What the hell? And then one of them I recognized. And I just looked at Sandy like, are you setting me up, you know? And she's like, just don't - no, don't worry about these people. Just go say hi. Just go on in. So I walk in and, you know, say hi to Larry and tell him how much I loved the show and, you know, the "Seinfeld" fan girl thing. And he goes, OK, here's a situation. You're out. You're best friends with my wife. And you're walking down the street. You're out for your morning walk. And I drive by. And I say, hey; I know that tush anywhere. And I was like, well, why the hell would you say something like that? I said, that's rude. And he - and I just go in - off on him. And he's just laughing. He goes, yeah, yeah, yeah. She - this is the one. Send them home. This is the one. This is the one.

MOSLEY: That's so great because the show is, like, it's - is it mostly adlib?

SYKES: It's - yeah, yeah. They'll give you the story points and just, like - so they'll just say, hey; you need to mention this or say this place. Say you have to be here about a certain time, just things that you definitely need to keep the story moving. But the rest of it is just adlib.

MOSLEY: Yeah. OK, let's take a quick break. I'm talking with award-winning comedian Wanda Sykes, who has a new comedy special on Netflix titled "I'm An Entertainer." Sykes also stars in Mel Brooks' "History Of The World, Part II," which she co-wrote and produced. We'll be right back to talk more after this short break. I'm Tonya Mosley and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF PONCHO SANCHEZ'S "GIANT STEPS")

MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. Let's get back to my interview with comedian Wanda Sykes. She has a new Netflix comedy special called "I'm An Entertainer." She also stars in Mel Brooks' "History Of The World, Part II," which she co-wrote and produced. And her Netflix show "The Upshaws" is now in its third season. Wanda also starred in the third season of the Amazon Prime series "The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel" as real-life comedian Moms Mabley. Mabley was a fixture on the Black American vaudeville circuit and went on to record comedy albums and appear on "The Ed Sullivan Show" and "The Smothers Brothers." She came out as lesbian in 1921, becoming one of the first openly gay comedians, and was the first female comic to perform at the Apollo Theater in Harlem.

In 2020, you were also nominated for an Emmy for playing the comedian Moms Mabley in an episode of Amazon Prime's "The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel." Let's listen to a clip.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE MARVELOUS MRS. MAISEL")

SYKES: (As Moms Mabley) I'm not prejudiced. I'm not. But I don't like no old man. I don't give a damn what color he is.

(LAUGHTER)

SYKES: (As Moms Mabley) Yeah. I like them young, baby.

(LAUGHTER)

SYKES: (As Moms Mabley) What about it? Can't no old man do nothing for me but bring me a message from a young man.

(LAUGHTER)

SYKES: (As Moms Mabley) That's all he can do. I don't want nothing old but some old money.

(LAUGHTER)

SYKES: (As Moms Mabley) I married an old man when I was nothing but a child - 15 years old. That was a curse back in my day. You had to marry who your parents picked out for you. My daddy picked out this old man. My daddy liked him. My daddy should have married him.

(LAUGHTER)

SYKES: (As Moms Mabley) They say you shouldn't say nothing about the dead unless it's good. He's dead. That's good.

(LAUGHTER)

SYKES: (As Moms Mabley) One weekend, I said, why don't we go out to the country? You know anything about the country? He said, sure. I know about the country. When I was a young boy, I used to live in the country. I said, when you was a young boy, everybody lived in the country.

(LAUGHTER)

MOSLEY: That was a clip of Wanda Sykes playing comedian Moms Mabley in an episode of the Amazon Prime's "Marvelous Mrs. Maisel." Were you a fan of Moms Mabley growing up?

SYKES: Oh, my God. She means the world to me. I mean, I wouldn't be here if it weren't for Moms. And I was just fascinated, just fascinated by this old Black woman who kind of dressed like my Big Mama. And, you know, just - I just thought she was the funniest thing. And yeah, it just stayed with me. Like, even in college, my sorority sisters - they always, like, laugh and stuff 'cause they would, like, remember how, you know, after, you know, a few beverages, I would just turn into this old lady and just would just, you know, be like, come here, girl - you know, just saying all kind of crazy stuff. And yeah.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

SYKES: Listening to it, I was like, oh, I dropped right there. I can hear it.

MOSLEY: You can hear the....

SYKES: I can hear when I drop. I was like, OK, Moms, Moms, ah, there's Wanda - OK, Moms. Yeah.

MOSLEY: Can you tell us about the first time you saw Moms Mabley or heard her?

SYKES: I was a kid. I remember sitting on the floor at my - you know, in front of the TV at my grandmother's house. And, you know, my grandmother's on the sofa. Big Mama, my great - you know, great-grandmother's in a rocking chair. And we're just - I don't know if - I think it was "The Smothers Brothers" because my - it was "The Smothers Brothers" because my great-grandmother, Big Mama - she didn't get that it was a bit that Dickie would always pick on Tom.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

SYKES: She didn't get it, so she would just fuss like, boy, if - I tell you. If he was my baby boy, I would - boy, I would bust his head open, you know? He's just so mean to him. He said, I don't know why they momma let that boy grow up and be that mean to his brother. That ain't nice. That ain't - in front of everybody. And so, yeah, it must have been "The Smothers Brothers" 'cause when Moms Mabley came out, we were just - all of us were just laughing. And I - and then I remember, like, watching them laugh at her and going, oh, man, you know, I want to do that. I want to make my grandmother laugh like that. This is - yeah.

MOSLEY: You know, what's interesting about her is that she was so popular during that time, but she rarely comes up in modern day when we...

SYKES: Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...Talk about comedians.

SYKES: Yeah. She should. She's always at the top of my list. And she was so involved, you know, politically and - you know, equality. I mean, she went to the White House. They had a - I guess it was a summit, you know? And she was there - big in organizing that. I think that's when Eartha Kitt got in trouble.

MOSLEY: Oh, that one.

SYKES: Yeah. Yeah, I think it was that one. But, yeah, so she - yeah, she's huge to me - means the world to me.

MOSLEY: You've taken on some historical roles recently. You were one of the executive producers of Mel Brooks' "History Of The World, Part II." And you portrayed Harriet Tubman, Shirley Chisholm and Bessie Coleman. I got to know which one of these roles was your favorite to play.

SYKES: Oh, Shirley Chisholm.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

SYKES: Yeah, Shirley Chisholm, hands down. Yeah. I always wanted to do something on Shirley Chisholm, and my producing partner, Page Hurwitz, and I - we would always joke like, oh, now it's time to write the Shirley Chisholm movie. Let's - you know? And then when this came up, "History Of The World," they said, well, Wanda, what character would you like to play? And I was like, Shirley Chisholm. And they were like, oh, that's great.

MOSLEY: What was it like making these characters funny? - because, I mean, we don't think of them as funny. They're not funny. I mean...

SYKES: They're people, so - people are funny. Shirley Chisholm - she was pretty funny. She didn't take no mess. She was good.

MOSLEY: Yeah. I heard you say that working with Mel Brooks was on your bucket list.

SYKES: Yes. Yes. But I - you know, I didn't even knew that this would be possible, you know? But, yeah, it's just kind of, like, something that just fell into my lap. And it was like, wait a minute. Mel Brooks wants me on this project. OK. And I was like, how - where - how did this happen? And I remember back when AFI was honoring Jane Fonda, and I did a bit for - you know, for Jane on that program. And I remember after the show, Mel Brooks came up, and he was like, you - you're funny. And he grabs me, and he kisses me on the cheek and then just - poof. And I was like, wait a minute. That just happened.

MOSLEY: Did that just happen?

SYKES: Yeah, exactly.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

SYKES: Did that just happen? So I guess that, you know, stayed with him. So when this project came up, yeah, Nick called me. He was like, hey; we're doing this. And Mel would love for you to be involved. And I was like, oh, absolutely. Yeah.

MOSLEY: You guest hosted "The Daily Show" a few times this past winter. Was it fun to host that show?

SYKES: It was fun, it was. A lot of work, which I don't mind. But...

MOSLEY: A lot of prep work?

SYKES: It's a long day. Like, you know, you get in, in the morning. And then you - it's such a well-run machine. I mean, they know how - they know what they're doing. And the thing is, you know, there's a clock, you know? It's like a war room. There's the clock. And you just - OK, boom, this time - you know, it's the countdown to we have to do a show...

MOSLEY: Yeah.

SYKES: ...At this time, you know? So you start off in the morning. And they go through a bunch of stories. So what stories do you like, Wanda? And I'm like, oh, I like this one, this one, this one. OK, cool. Then we go into another room with, I mean, a bunch of writers, a gang of writers. And then we show them the stories. And then whatever jumps off to them. I'm like, OK - so we come back, go back to the little room. And then it's like, OK, yeah, the writers seem to like this, this, this. So let's now focus on these three stories. OK, introduction - hello. I'm Wanda Sykes. And I'm like, oh, wait a minute.

MOSLEY: (Laughter).

SYKES: There's no template where we just throw stuff in there.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

SYKES: Like, this is pretty much it. And - yeah, and we sit in that room, the small group, and we write the show.

MOSLEY: Wow.

SYKES: It's crazy.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

SYKES: It's crazy.

MOSLEY: Eventually, they'll have to name a successor to Trevor Noah.

SYKES: Right, right.

MOSLEY: Would you want to host that show?

SYKES: I don't - I'm not going after it, you know? I'm not - it's not something I'm, you know, seeking. But it's - I don't know. I don't think it would fit with my lifestyle, with my family right now. I don't think that's something that would fit with them.

MOSLEY: One of my favorite "Finding Your Roots" episodes is with you. It's back in 2012. And your ancestry was traced back to 1683, a 1683 court case involving your ancestor, Elizabeth Banks, a free white woman and indentured servant who then gave birth to a biracial child, and who was fathered by an enslaved man. And this child inherited her mother's...

SYKES: Enslaved Negro.

MOSLEY: Yes.

SYKES: Yes.

MOSLEY: Right. And the child inherited her mother's free status. At the time that you found out this information, Henry Louis Gates said that you had the longest continuous documented family tree of any Black American that he had ever researched. I'm wondering, what has finding out that information meant to you over the years as you were able to sit with that?

SYKES: You know, it's bittersweet. I'm so grateful that I do have that, you know, that I do know - I know something about my ancestors. But then it's so sad because it's like, it still, you know, came out of slavery, you know? It's - this white woman, she came here looking for a better life and, you know, but as an indentured servant. And so we do know that part. But then I go - I have three other grandparents that - nothing. They were just property, you know? So it's - yeah, you know? And then I always say that, you know, because I came from this, you know, these free Negroes, maybe that's why I'm so uppity.

MOSLEY: Stop. Stop it, Wanda.

(LAUGHTER)

MOSLEY: Wanda Sykes, thank you so much.

SYKES: Why, thank you.

MOSLEY: This has been a pleasure.

SYKES: It has. I enjoyed it. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me on.

MOSLEY: Wanda Sykes' new comedy special, "I'm An Entertainer," is now on Netflix. She also stars in Mel Brooks' "History Of The World, Part II" and is the executive producer for "The Upshaws," which enters its third season this fall. Coming up, TV critic David Bianculli reviews a new documentary about Mary Tyler Moore. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF B.J. THOMAS SONG, "RAINDROPS KEEP FALLIN' ON MY HEAD")

TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. Actress Mary Tyler Moore, who died in 2017 at age 80, is the subject of a new two-hour documentary. It's called "Being Mary Tyler Moore" and premieres this Friday on HBO. Our TV critic David Bianculli has this review.

DAVID BIANCULLI, BYLINE: As an actress, Mary Tyler Moore is most famous for playing indelible, very funny and significantly modern everyday women in two excellent TV sitcoms. First, she won Emmys in the '60s as housewife and mother Laura Petrie on "The Dick Van Dyke Show," and then again in the '70s as single working woman Mary Richards on "The Mary Tyler Moore Show." In their way, those were groundbreaking roles. But she also challenged barriers elsewhere, succeeding both on Broadway and in the movies when at the time, television stars seldom succeeded in crossing over to theater or film. And in her private life, which for the most part, she kept private, she had a complicated childhood, three marriages and her own sometimes troubling family issues, including her mother's alcoholism and eventually her own.

"Being Mary Tyler Moore," a new HBO documentary directed by James Adolphus, manages to touch all these bases - some more deeply than others. One of the executive producers of this program is Robert Levine, Moore's third husband, who provides all manner of home movies and other material. The results aren't always flattering. But they do illuminate some of the connections between the actress' private life and the roles she played, and some of the battles she fought or chose not to fight in pursuing her career. The approach Adolphus takes as director is to have no narration and to rely instead on vintage TV clips and new audio interviews. Julia Louis-Dreyfus, Oprah Winfrey, Phylicia Rashad and others talk about the impact of Mary Tyler Moore's TV roles on their own careers, but they're only heard, not seen. The TV clips are more valuable. One, the first on-screen dramatic role of her career, has her playing a telephone operator named Sam in a TV series called "Richard Diamond, Private Detective," starring David Janssen, later of "The Fugitive." She only appeared for a while before being replaced but caused quite a stir. As Sam, she always was at her telephone switchboard, but her face was never seen, only her legs and the back of her head. I've been looking for a sample of this for a long time, and here one finally is, giving David Janssen's private eye a wake-up call with her low-register phone voice.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "RICHARD DIAMOND, PRIVATE DETECTIVE")

MARY TYLER MOORE: (As Sam) Who's this?

DAVID JANSSEN: (As Richard Diamond) This is Richard Diamond of the (inaudible) Diamonds.

MOORE: (As Sam) Well, at least you're awake.

JANSSEN: (As Richard Diamond) Don't take any money on it, Samuel.

MOORE: (As Sam) You wanted me to make sure you were up. She's due at your home in about five minutes.

JANSSEN: (As Richard Diamond) Who's due?

MOORE: (As Sam) Dorian Crane. She lives on the right side of the tracks in Beverly Hills.

JANSSEN: (As Richard Diamond) What side is that?

BIANCULLI: In the documentary, Mary Tyler Moore reveals why she was replaced in that role. She had asked for a raise. Another piece of vintage television revisited several times is from a 1966 interview with TV host David Susskind. She's at the height of her "Dick Van Dyke Show" popularity then and a high-profile actress, and Susskind hits her with a line of questioning that is joltingly sexist.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE DAVID SUSSKIND SHOW")

DAVID SUSSKIND: How can a woman be wed to two forces in life? In other words, you're only half-married if you're in show business because that demands so much of your ego, so much investment of your energy.

MOORE: I don't think so. I think I could waste an awful lot more energy sitting at home, having nothing to do other than just talk with the girls about what gossip they've heard or just chase after the kids instead of spending time with my son because I know we don't have as much time as most parents and children have. I make good use of that time.

BIANCULLI: As we go chronologically through her career, some of the stops seem too superficial. "The Dick Van Dyke Show," created by Carl Reiner, was much more significant than the time it's given here, and even the excerpts from the episodes could have showcased the series and Mary Tyler Moore much better. "The Mary Tyler Moore Show" is treated more skillfully. Clips are chosen from that show that reflect on her relationship with her real father or that contain all the expected highlights. But while MTM Productions, which launched with "The Mary Tyler Moore Show," changed television completely and is more than worthy of its own documentary, that's more the story of Moore's second husband, Grant Tinker. He ran the company, which eventually produced "The Bob Newhart Show," "Lou Grant," "Hill Street Blues" and "St. Elsewhere."

Moore says in this documentary she was never interested in producing or directing, just dancing and acting. But in crafting and approving the concept for her own series, she did launch all those ships. One of its creators, James L. Brooks, recalls how it wasn't smooth sailing from the start. He and his writing partner, Alan Burns, pitching the first original concept for Mary Richards and for all of MTM Productions, had her moving to Minneapolis after getting divorced. That idea was dead on arrival at CBS.

(SOUNDBITE OF DOCUMENTARY, "BEING MARY TYLER MOORE")

JAMES L BROOKS: We were two guys at an office for a company that hadn't happened yet, kicking around ideas. I don't think there had been a divorced woman yet on television. We went to CBS to pitch with Grant, maybe 20 executives, the big boss there. And we told them this idea, and they were polite, and they asked us to step out of the room. We found out later they told Grant to fire us. They had three rules that couldn't happen on a CBS show at the time - Jews, somebody with a mustache or divorced women.

BIANCULLI: "The Mary Tyler Moore Show" was as barrier-busting in its way as the outspoken humor of "All In The Family" and the anti-war sentiment of "M*A*S*H." All those shows, by the way, eventually ended up on the same Saturday night of programming on CBS, paired with "The Bob Newhart Show" and "The Carol Burnett Show." Then and now, it remains the best night of television in television history. And this documentary, "Being Mary Tyler Moore," helps you appreciate the show and the actress even more.

MOSLEY: David Bianculli is a professor of television studies at Rowan University. Coming up, our book critic Maureen Corrigan reviews the new novel "Good Night, Irene." This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF CLARK TERRY'S "IMPULSIVE")

TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. Doughnut dollies - that was the affectionate but diminishing name that female Red Cross volunteers were called who provided coffee, doughnuts and cheer to troops during World War II. In his new novel, "Good Night, Irene," Luis Alberto Urrea pays tribute to the sometimes-harrowing wartime service of these doughnut dollies, one of whom was his own mother. Book critic Maureen Corrigan has a review.

MAUREEN CORRIGAN, BYLINE: Many of us baby boomers grew up with World War II as a felt if silent presence. The fathers of my childhood friends served in the Air Force, the Army and my own dad in the Navy on a destroyer escort. But we kids knew of their war mostly through a few black-and-white photos or the foreign coins that rattled in their dresser drawers. They really didn't talk much about the war. Luis Alberto Urrea is a fellow baby boomer with a different World War II inheritance. His mother served as a Red Cross volunteer in an outfit called the Clubmobile Corps, providing doughnuts, coffee and friendly conversation to our troops. In an author's note to his panoramic historical novel, "Good Night, Irene," Urrea tells us his mother was assigned to Patton's Third Army, trapped behind enemy lines in the Battle of the Bulge and was with the troops who helped liberate Buchenwald. Urrea also writes that his mother, who he now realizes suffered from undiagnosed PTSD, never spoke to him of her service.

Urrea is celebrated for his books about the U.S.-Mexico border, particularly his nonfiction work "The Devil's Highway," which was a 2005 Pulitzer Prize finalist. "Good Night, Irene" is a departure. Drawing on his mother's journals and scrapbooks and the spotty information that survived about the Clubmobile Corps, Urrea has written a female-centric World War II novel in the mode of an epic like Herman Wouk's "The Winds Of War," replete with harrowing battle scenes, Dickensian twists of fate and unthinkable acts of bravery and barbarity. In "Good Night, Irene," Urrea pays moving tribute to his mother and her Clubmobile comrades, whose wartime service was largely forgotten because, even though they sometimes served under fire, they merely staffed what was called the chow and charm circuit.

Urrea's main characters in this wartime buddy novel are two young women seeking escape and purpose. Irene Woodward, much like Urrea's own mother did, volunteers as a way out of a disastrous engagement back home in New York. Dorothy Dunford, a farm girl from Indiana, has nothing left to lose. Her parents are dead, and her brother was killed at Pearl Harbor. Together, the women will become the crew of an American Red Cross Clubmobile dubbed the Rapid City. It's a 2-1/2-ton marvel equipped with two coffee urns, water tanks, boiler and burners, doughnut machine, Victrola and stacks of swing records and rifle clips. As Irene reflects, the truck was like a little B-17 - everything in its place, bomb-loads of doughnuts in the racks, all arrayed vertically, waiting to be delivered.

Urrea's sweeping storyline follows the women's induction in Washington, D.C., a North Atlantic crossing where their convoy is attacked by U-boats, mechanic training and gas mask drills in the English countryside and ultimately arrival at Utah Beach a month after D-Day, where the Rapid City joins a cadre of other Clubmobiles with regional pride names like the Annapolis and the Wolverine. Here are some descriptions of Irene and Dorothy multitasking in France.

(Reading) The work had all faded into a long line of faces, faces and faces lined up at the window, staring at them. Small trucks came and went, laden with more damn doughnut mix and coffee beans and sugar and grease and bags of letters they had to distribute. On their right hands, both women sported aluminum rings fashioned by GIs out of the downed German airplanes scattered around the landscape. They each felt like war brides to a few thousand husbands. It was also becoming clear that their job had yet another feature nobody had trained them for. They were engaged, on most nights, in listening to confessions. The boys needed to talk. It was the great unburdening.

As befits a contemporary war novel, "Good Night, Irene" is morally nuanced. It doesn't turn away from scenes of random violence inflicted by our boys. And it also acknowledges the traumas endured by many who served and survived. Maybe in "Good Night, Irene," Urrea has written yet another powerful border story after all, this time about the border between those who live in blessed ignorance of the worst humankind can do and those who keep that knowledge to themselves, often locked in silence.

MOSLEY: Maureen Corrigan is a professor of literature at Georgetown University. She reviewed "Good Night, Irene" by Luis Alberto Urrea. On the next FRESH AIR, Dave Davies speaks with Julia Louis-Dreyfus, known for her role on "Seinfeld" and the HBO series "Veep." Dreyfus talks with us about her new role in the film "You Hurt My Feelings." FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. For Terry Gross, I'm Tonya Mosley.

(SOUNDBITE OF REGGIE QUINERLY'S "MY BLUE HEAVEN")

Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.