Film Director Rob Marshall
He directed and choreographed the new film adaptation of Chicago. It stars Richard Gere, Catherine Zeta-Jones, Renee Zellweger and Queen Latifah. Previously, Marshall won an Emmy for Best Choreography for his work on the movie-musical Annie. He also directed and choreographed the acclaimed revival of Cabaret.
Other segments from the episode on January 14, 2004
Transcript
DATE January 14, 2003 ACCOUNT NUMBER N/A⨠TIME 12:00 Noon-1:00 PM AUDIENCE N/A⨠NETWORK NPR⨠PROGRAM Fresh Airâ¨â¨Interview: Rob Marshall discusses his movie adaptation of theâ¨musical "Chicago"â¨TERRY GROSS, host:â¨â¨This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.â¨â¨Today, we're talking about "Chicago," the movie adaptation of the Broadwayâ¨musical. The soundtrack has just been released. Here's Catherine Zeta-Jonesâ¨singing the opening number.â¨â¨(Soundbite of music)â¨â¨Ms. CATHERINE ZETA-JONES: (Singing) Come on, babe, why don't we paint theâ¨town and all that jazz. I'm going to rouge my knees and roll my stockingsâ¨down and all that jazz. Start the car, I know a whoopee spot where the gin isâ¨cold, but the piano's hot. It's just a noisy hall where there's a nightlyâ¨brawl and all that jazz.â¨â¨GROSS: My guest, Rob Marshall, is the director and choreographer ofâ¨"Chicago." It's a musical he already knew well. He directed a theatricalâ¨revival of "Chicago" in Los Angeles. He choreographed and co-directed theâ¨Broadway revival of "Cabaret," which, like "Chicago," has songs by John Kanderâ¨and Fred Ebb. Marshall also directed a revival of the Burt Bacharach musicalâ¨"Promises, Promises" starring Martin Short, and choreographed the Broadwayâ¨revival of "Damn Yankees."â¨â¨"Chicago" is set in the '20s during the Prohibition era. Renee Zellwegerâ¨plays Roxie Hart, who dreams of singing and dancing her way out of poverty andâ¨into stardom. She's cheating on her husband with a man who says he hasâ¨contacts and can pull strings to get her booked into a nightclub. When sheâ¨finds out he's lying, she shoots him. In prison, she meets Velma Kelly, aâ¨nightclub star who found her husband cheating on her with her sister, so sheâ¨shot them both. Velma is played by Catherine Zeta-Jones. Richard Gere playsâ¨the slick lawyer who turns Roxie's case into a media circus. In the sceneâ¨where Roxie first lands in jail, the women prisoners explain why they'veâ¨killed their husbands and lovers in a song and dance called the "Cell Blockâ¨Tango."â¨â¨I asked Rob Marshall to compare his choreography for the "Cell Block Tango"â¨with Bob Fosse's, who did the original 1975 Broadway production.â¨â¨Mr. ROB MARSHALL (Director-Choreographer): You know, on stage, originally,â¨Bob Fosse did it with these wonderful jail bars that--they each had their ownâ¨set of jail bars that they would move around the stage in wonderful patternsâ¨and stomp the jail bars on the floor and so forth. And I wanted to tryâ¨something completely different, so I came up with the idea of having themâ¨actually tango with their victims. And so I brought men into the piece and soâ¨that they could sort of throw them around and be abusive to the men that hadâ¨abused them. And so that whole idea, by bringing the men into it, led me downâ¨a completely different path. I could actually do a tango, and so I didn'tâ¨feel like I had to follow in the footsteps of the original concept of theâ¨number, so I tried to, with each number, reconceive the number, so I, youâ¨know, didn't find myself, you know, having this ghost of Fosse over me.â¨â¨GROSS: Why don't we hear a little bit of the song "He Had It Coming," inâ¨which the women who killed their husbands or lovers are explaining why theyâ¨did it.â¨â¨(Soundbite of music)â¨â¨Group of Cell Mates (In Unison): (Singing) He had it coming.â¨â¨Unidentified Actress #1: (Singing) I met Ezekiel Young from Salt Lake Cityâ¨about two years ago, and he told me he was single, and we hit it off rightâ¨away. So we started living together. He'd go to work, he'd come home. I'dâ¨fix him a drink. We'd have dinner. And then I found out. `Single,' he toldâ¨me. Single my ass. Not only was he married, oh, no, he had six wives. Oneâ¨of those Mormons, you know. So that night, when he came home for work, Iâ¨fixed him his drink as usual. You know, some guys just can't hold theirâ¨arsenic.â¨â¨Group of Cell Mates (In Unison): (Singing) He had it coming. He had itâ¨coming. He took a flower in its prime. And then he used it, and he abusedâ¨it. It was a murder, but not a crime.â¨â¨Unidentified Actress #2: (Singing) Now I'm standing in the kitchen carvin' upâ¨the chicken for dinner, minding my own business. In storms my husbandâ¨Wilbur...â¨â¨GROSS: That's the cell block tango, "He Had It Coming" from "Chicago." Myâ¨guest is director and choreographer of the new film adaptation, Rob Marshall.â¨â¨Your choreography for this sequence is very--you know, it's a tango, andâ¨there's something very, you know, almost sadomasochistic about the way it'sâ¨choreographed, and also in the way that everybody is dressed. How intentionalâ¨is that? I mean, what kind of look are you going for there?â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: Well, I have this incredible costume designer, Colleen Atwood,â¨who had a real--you know, amazing skills as a designer, has done most of theâ¨Tim Burton films, and has a wild imagination and such taste. And you know,â¨obviously, she had to, you know, design in two different worlds. One was ourâ¨vaudeville world. One was our real world. And the vaudeville world, youâ¨know, there's a great deal of flexibility there and range, because it takesâ¨place in her mind. So, you know, I remember for that specific number, Colleenâ¨found this beautiful 1920s portrait of this woman who was in these sort ofâ¨strappy kind of--I don't even know what you call it, sort of a leotard-typeâ¨thing, but it was really risque. I mean, you know, the clothes then wereâ¨really unbelievably risque that women rarely wore bras. It was short skirts.â¨It was really sort of a female empowerment time. And, you know, she foundâ¨this great strappy kind of thing, and I think that sort of became the--thatâ¨actual photograph from the early '20s became sort of our idea for this number.â¨And, you know, yeah, I mean, it's a very aggressive number. It--you know,â¨it's violent in a way, but still satirical, I think, too.â¨â¨GROSS: Let me be more blunt about the costumes. I mean, the women areâ¨wearing these, like, black leather straps, basically, you know...â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: Rightâ¨â¨GROSS: ...with dark stockings and, I think--What?--like black-heeled bootsâ¨maybe?â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: Yeah. Some have boots on, yeah. There was a lot of straps.â¨Honestly, that came from actual pictures of the period, but it--yes,â¨absolutely, it has a little bit of that sadomasochism there, but sexy, too, Iâ¨think.â¨â¨GROSS: Well, speaking of sexy, the opening number, "All That Jazz," in whichâ¨Catherine Zeta-Jones is the main dancer and singer, she, too, is wearing a lotâ¨of flimsy and revealing black leather. How do you make dance reallyâ¨sexy-look--what kind of movements, to you, what style of movement says sex toâ¨you?â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: Well, let me see. You know, I don't--it's funny. I don'tâ¨even think in terms of sex. You know, I think all movement is very sexual inâ¨a way, because, you know, you're moving your body in ways that you don'tâ¨normally do. And so I think this particular number, one of the sort ofâ¨conceptual ideas behind it was, I had men and women on stage, and I reallyâ¨thought of it sort of as--I hate to say this word, you know, sort ofâ¨like, you know--'cause I just met you, Terry, sort of like an orgy, you know.â¨The idea is that everybody on stage is sort of moving through other people,â¨and it was like a club within a club. In other words, you're in this club,â¨and it's sort of spilling out over on the stage into this club. And so Iâ¨created this little club on stage, where these men and women were movingâ¨through each other and around each other and feeling each other. And, youâ¨know, it's all about sort of being free and loose, which is--and, you know, Iâ¨take a lot of my inspiration from the brilliant Fred Ebb lyrics. I mean, youâ¨hear those lyrics, you know, when you're saying, `Find a flask. We're playingâ¨fast and loose.' And you can just start choreographing that just by hearingâ¨those great words, so that helped me into the material.â¨â¨GROSS: What do you think is the difference between what Bob Fosse foundâ¨really sexy or sensual as a choreographer and what you do?â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: Well, you know, it's always hard to just sort of dissectâ¨styles. I think Bob had a very specific style that came from his physicality.â¨I mean, he smoked, and so cigarettes were always in his numbers. He had sortâ¨of hunched over shoulders, and so, you know, there's was always sort of aâ¨hunch sensibility to his work. He loved--I think he was very much influencedâ¨by Fred Astaire and Balanchine and Jack Cole, so a lot of his stuff was veryâ¨detailed small movements, a lot of isolation. I think if I had...â¨â¨GROSS: By isolation, you mean, like, one shoulder moves, or one hip moves?â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: Right, exactly. One finger moves. I would say that my styleâ¨is probably more abandoned than that, more character-driven than that. Iâ¨don't force my style, one specific style, you know, on people. I try to workâ¨from what they have, and I also try to tell the story. So that's where myâ¨work--that's what inspires me.â¨â¨GROSS: My guest is Rob Marshall, the director and choreographer of "Chicago."â¨More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.â¨â¨(Soundbite of music)â¨â¨GROSS: My guest is Rob Marshall. He directed and choreographed the new filmâ¨adaptation of the Broadway musical "Chicago."â¨â¨Let's talk about the casting. Catherine Zeta-Jones is the star. She playsâ¨Velma. And I didn't know until "Chicago" that she had a background in musicalâ¨theater when she was in London, and she starred in a West End production ofâ¨"42nd Street."â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: Yeah.â¨â¨GROSS: I guess everybody knows that now, but very few people knew that untilâ¨"Chicago." How did you know that she had the gifts to do this? She's reallyâ¨terrific in the film.â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: Well, Marty Richards, who's our producer, had told me thatâ¨Catherine had a voice and had danced. He was a friend of theirs--theirsâ¨meaning Michael Douglas and Catherine Zeta-Jones, and had heard her sing at aâ¨Christmas party. You know, it's so funny, because musicals aren't done theseâ¨days, you find yourself really doing detective work, you know, trying toâ¨figure out, `Oh, I heard somebody did this,' or `I heard in their backgroundâ¨they did this.' Anyway, so Marty sort of let me know that she had doneâ¨that--you know, had sung and sounded great. And he had also told me that sheâ¨had starred in "42nd Street" in the West End.â¨â¨And then I found out, you know, that as a kid, she had been in "Annie" in theâ¨West End and "Bugsy Malone" and then started doing chorus work in "Pajamaâ¨Game" and things like that. And then I actually saw a tape of her on theâ¨Olivia Awards doing Kurt Weill's "Street Scene." And she did a big jitterbugâ¨number called "Moon Faced and Starry Eyed," where she sang and danced. Andâ¨that was great, because, you know, I saw everything in that dance number thatâ¨I needed to see. I mean, she was tapping and turning and kicking and beingâ¨lifted, and she also sang with such a great voice. It was sort of like, `Wow,â¨I didn't realize, you know, she had those gifts,' and so it was sort of theâ¨combination of all those things that sort of let me know that she was the realâ¨deal.â¨â¨GROSS: I feel like thanking you for casting somebody in the lead who has aâ¨little bit of flesh on her bone. She has a beautiful figure, but she doesn'tâ¨look like a skeleton, and so many dancers really do.â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: Yeah.â¨â¨GROSS: And I think that really works, because she has to look pretty toughâ¨and kind of threatening, and she's able to pull that off.â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: I mean, I actually really love weight, you know. I love realâ¨people. I love real people dancing. I thought she looked like a real woman.â¨And I love the dynamic between that and Roxie. Roxie is this waifishâ¨wannabe, and so the dynamic between the two was so important. You know, Iâ¨really did not want to cast the same person twice, you know. I didn't wantâ¨the same gal twice. I really wanted distinctly different people playingâ¨these roles.â¨â¨GROSS: Now you cast Richard Gere in the male lead, Renee Zellweger in one ofâ¨the female leads.â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: Yes.â¨â¨GROSS: They don't really have song and dance backgrounds. Did you try toâ¨find people who really had a background in song and dance, as well as acting?â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: Well, with Billy Flynn, which--Richard Gere's role, he doesâ¨have a major song and dance background, it's just nobody knew about it. Youâ¨know, he played Danny Zuko in "Grease" in the West End. That was one of hisâ¨first big jobs. And then he had done a series of rock musicals before he wentâ¨into film. But nobody knows that, because musicals aren't done anymore. So,â¨you know, if we were living in the '40s or '50s, he would have done, you know,â¨six or seven musicals by now, but nobody knew of those skills. And, you know,â¨it's something that just rolled right off of him. I mean, he has this amazingâ¨ability to--you know, I don't know if you know, he plays the guitar, he playsâ¨the piano, plays the cornet, he sings every day. This is a very musicalâ¨person. It's something that he loves, but had never had the chance to doâ¨since he was a kid, you know. So, and I--you know, 25 years or somethingâ¨since he had done it.â¨â¨So he was loving rediscovering it again, but--and he worked so hard. I mean,â¨the one thing he was not was a tap dancer, and that took--I mean, I've neverâ¨seen anybody work so hard in my life. I mean, he literally would go into aâ¨room and curse and swear and go through, like, wet T-shirt after wet T-shirtâ¨of sweat until, you know, he had gotten--I mean, I think he worked threeâ¨months to get where he needed to be for this tap dance, 'cause he'd never doneâ¨that before. And, you know, tap's all about rhythm, and he's a real musician,â¨so that part was great. It was just sort of, like, training your brain toâ¨your feet.â¨â¨And then, in terms of Roxie, I mean, Renee--that was the trickiest part toâ¨cast. I saw, maybe, over a dozen major film actresses for that role, 'cause Iâ¨didn't know. I didn't know who had the skills and--because, like I say,â¨they're just not done anymore--musicals. So we started the quote, unquote,â¨"Scarlett O'Hara search" for Roxie. And, you know, I've worked with manyâ¨people that--you know, actors that are new to musicals. Natasha Richardson inâ¨"Cabaret" on stage. Alan Cumming was new to musicals. Kathy Bates, when Iâ¨did "Annie," you know. I put Whoopi Goldberg into "A Funny Thing Happened Onâ¨The Way to The Forum." That was new for her. I love working with people whoâ¨are new to musicals. It's fun, for me, to work from that place, fromâ¨character.â¨â¨And, you know, with Renee, it was--she walked in, and we started working, andâ¨I literally knew within, like, 10 seconds that she could do it, because I sawâ¨her dance line. I saw her athletic ability immediately. I saw her sense ofâ¨style and how she could bring the character to life through movement andâ¨through her voice. And it was, you know, like, `Hallelujah,' 'cause Iâ¨thought, `Now I have a movie.'â¨â¨GROSS: In a lot of musicals from the '50s and '60s, the singing was actuallyâ¨dubbed. You know, even in "West Side Story," you know, Natalie Wood is dubbedâ¨in most of her songs.â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: Yes, by Marni Nixon.â¨â¨GROSS: Yeah.â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: Yeah.â¨â¨GROSS: So did anyone suggest to you the horrible possibility of dubbing yourâ¨leading actors?â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: You know what? I think because I come from the theater, theyâ¨know that I would have spun around and said, `No way,' because I don't want toâ¨do--you know, it's funny. You see "My Fair Lady" now, which is such aâ¨beautiful, beautiful movie, and Marni Nixon sounds great. But every time Iâ¨hear Audrey Hepburn open her mouth to sing and Marni Nixon comes out, it justâ¨pulls you out of the story. It's just--it bothers me. So I just reallyâ¨didn't want to do that. I didn't want to do that ever. And it's funny. Aâ¨lot of people, after the movie--after having seen, you know, the beginningâ¨sort of, you know, test screens of the movie, were saying, `Well, obviously,â¨that's not Richard Gere tap dancing.' And I was, like, `Yes, it is. Everyâ¨single frame of that is Richard.' Yeah.â¨â¨GROSS: Oh, but that's the thing. At the very end of the credits, there's aâ¨credit that says that Catherine Zeta-Jones, Renee Zellweger and Richard Gereâ¨did their own singing and dancing.â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: Yes.â¨â¨GROSS: So everybody on the film must have felt that it was necessary toâ¨actually go on the record at the end of the film and say that.â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: Well, we did it with sort of a little bit of a sense of humorâ¨about it because, you know, we were just saying, `How can we let people knowâ¨that these people who worked so hard to sing and dance and--you know, we wentâ¨through six weeks of rehearsal where it was, like, theatrical boot camp. And,â¨you know, I just wanted to make sure that they had their due, you know. Andâ¨so, we thought, `Well, you know what? We'll just--we'll put that at the endâ¨of the movie just so people know it's the truth, but also with a little bit ofâ¨a sense of humor about it, you know.'â¨â¨GROSS: Now "Chicago" was not edited like a Fred Astaire musical. In a Fredâ¨Astaire musical, the camera pulled back, and you saw Astaire and Rogersâ¨dance. Maybe there were a couple of edits, but basically, you saw themâ¨dance, you saw their whole bodies as they were dancing. And everything stopsâ¨while they dance. In "Chicago," the dance numbers are very highly edited.â¨And I'd like you to describe your approach to editing, the thinking behindâ¨it, the rhythm of it. I sometimes find that kind of fast-paced editing in aâ¨production number really frustrating, 'cause you feel like you don't get toâ¨see what anybody's doing. By the time they're finished with a movement,â¨you're already cutting to the next movement, and you don't really get theâ¨pleasure of watching somebody dance. I didn't feel that frustration with theâ¨way you edited it.â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: Well, you know, it's a balance. You know, with this piece,â¨actually, I felt that the language of our concept took us there, because theâ¨only way to tell the story was to be moving back and forth between these twoâ¨worlds. And so that energy and that language, which you set out right fromâ¨the very beginning as you're telling many different stories at once, sort ofâ¨lent us to this style of how to edit it.â¨â¨You know, people have asked me, `Did you edit this because, you know, it's theâ¨MTV generation, and you can't sit on something for that short?' And it'sâ¨like, `No, no, no.' I served this particular piece, which was being told veryâ¨specifically in two different worlds, and that's why that rhythm--you know,â¨it's interesting. If you set up that rhythm, if you then depart from thatâ¨rhythm, it seems odd and dishonest. And I had to experiment with lots ofâ¨things. I mean, truthfully, I could have sat on these numbers and just done aâ¨master, and they would have been beautiful, because, you know, I come fromâ¨stage, so I know how to do that. You know, I don't have to be afraid thatâ¨it's going to sort of just sit there and look kind of dull, because I can keepâ¨a stage moving because those are my roots, you know. And where you can't editâ¨on stage, you just have to sort of let it sit there in the master.â¨â¨But it was very intentional, the editing that I did, because I wanted to keepâ¨the language and the energy of the piece consistent. And because we hadâ¨created this idea that we'd be moving back and forth between these two worldsâ¨while still telling one linear story, then that became how to serve thisâ¨piece, and that's why I chose to sort of edit it that way.â¨â¨GROSS: Rob Marshall directed and choreographed the new film "Chicago."â¨He'll be back in the second half of the show. I'm Terry Gross, and this isâ¨FRESH AIR. From the new soundtrack of "Chicago," this is Richard Gere.â¨â¨(Soundbite of music)â¨â¨Mr. RICHARD GERE: (As Billy Flynn) Give 'em the old razzle-dazzle.â¨Razzle-dazzle them. Give 'em an act with lots of thrashing, and the reactionâ¨will be passionate. Give 'em the old hocus-pocus. Bead and feather 'em. Howâ¨can they see with sequins in their eyes? What if your hinges all are rusting?â¨What if, in fact, you're just disgusting? Razzle-dazzle 'em, and they'llâ¨never catch wise.â¨â¨Give 'em the old razzle-dazzle. Razzle-dazzle 'em. Give 'em a show that's soâ¨splendiferous, row after row will grow vociferous.â¨â¨Mr. GERE and Unidentified Woman: Give 'em the old flimflam flummox, fool andâ¨fracture 'em.â¨â¨(Announcements)â¨â¨GROSS: Coming up, helping actors learn to sing. We talk with Paul Bogaev,â¨the music supervisor and conductor for the film "Chicago" about working withâ¨Richard Gere and Renee Zellweger. And we continue our conversation with Robâ¨Marshall, the director and choreographer of "Chicago."â¨â¨(Soundbite of music)â¨â¨Unidentified Man: Five, six, seven, eight.â¨â¨(Soundbite of music)â¨â¨GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Rob Marshall, theâ¨choreographer and director of "Chicago," the new film adaptation of theâ¨Broadway musical. It was first produced on Broadway in 1975 with choreographyâ¨by Bob Fosse. One of the film's stars, Catherine Zeta-Jones, had performed inâ¨musicals in England before coming to America. But two of the stars, Reneeâ¨Zellweger and Richard Gere, were not used to singing.â¨â¨In "Chicago," you worked with some performers who are used to acting, but notâ¨that used to singing.â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: Right.â¨â¨GROSS: And I think when an actor's really good that they can convince youâ¨that they're a great singer, even if they're not, because they so look theâ¨part and they act out the lyrics so well. And I'll give you an example. Iâ¨mean, like, I like Marlene Dietrich's singing, but when she's performing in aâ¨movie, she's so spellbinding because she so inhabits that kind of sexualâ¨persona that you almost--you're just so convinced of the personality of thisâ¨song, you know, that...â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: Yes, yes.â¨â¨GROSS: So would you just talk a little bit about working with non-singers whoâ¨act...â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: Yeah.â¨â¨GROSS: ...and what you can get from them in a singing role.â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: It's such a great question, Terry. I mean, you know, when youâ¨think about some of our greatest musical theater performances, you know, youâ¨think of Rex Harrison in "My Fair Lady" or you think of Yul Brynner in "Kingâ¨and I" and you think of Lauren Bacall in "Applause" and, you know, I can go onâ¨and on and on. These aren't major singers, you know? They're not going toâ¨have an album out of just them singing, you know? I think you have to--Iâ¨mean, it's my philosophy--and I just feel you have to cast the part first, theâ¨character. That's the most important thing. And, of course, they're going toâ¨have to be able to sing. I mean, that's how they--but if you do it the otherâ¨way, you just cast the singer, you don't have the actor, you have a hollowâ¨production. I've seen it so many times. In fact, in the '80s, with the sortâ¨of influx of those sung-through musicals, you know, you see a musical andâ¨everybody has great voices, but there's not a personality on stage, there'sâ¨not a person up there, there's not a person with color. It's all kind of justâ¨very whitewashed, and it's very pretty and it sounds lovely, but you're notâ¨moved in any way, shape or form.â¨â¨I like the rough edges, you know? I like hearing a person sing. Now I don'tâ¨necessarily like hearing a person sing badly, and it's really great when theyâ¨can be a great actor and can sing, you know, as well. But I have to say thatâ¨I think the most important thing is that the person inhabits the character,â¨because I'm moved in a song not because somebody hits a high note, but I'mâ¨moved in a song because something emotional is happening to that character,â¨and they're expressing it through song.â¨â¨GROSS: Now...â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: So that's sort of how I feel.â¨â¨GROSS: ...one of the performers in "Chicago" is Queen Latifah, who is anâ¨actress who's also known for her rap recordings.â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: Yes.â¨â¨GROSS: She sings, and she sings really well in "Chicago." She also sang inâ¨the movie "Living Out Loud," in which she played a lounge singer.â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: Yeah.â¨â¨GROSS: Would you talk about directing her in her big number, which is calledâ¨"When You're Good to Mama."â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: Well, it's interesting. She's new to...â¨â¨GROSS: I should say she plays the prison warden in the women's prison...â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: Yes.â¨â¨GROSS: ...and she cuts deals with everybody.â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: Yes.â¨â¨GROSS: And the understanding is some deals are for money, probably some ofâ¨the deals are for sexual favors.â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: Yes, exactly. That's sort of the intention. You know, she isâ¨a performer. You know, she's a fabulous lady to work with and she comes fromâ¨rap and not necessarily sort of musical theater, but she certainly understandsâ¨performance from her days as a rapper. And it's so funny, she just has thisâ¨naturally big Broadway voice. But, you know, it was so funny, as we startedâ¨working on it, I thought, `Wow, this is--you know, where has this great talentâ¨been, this wonderful talent? She's our Pearl Bailey,' you know? `I'd love toâ¨see her get up there and do a Broadway musical,' because it's just in herâ¨blood.â¨â¨And it was funny, the day we were shooting it, the morning of, I completelyâ¨reblocked her song, which she wasn't too thrilled with, but, you know, I knewâ¨I had made a mistake. You know, the most important thing for me was that Iâ¨was really serving these people and making them as great as they could be. Andâ¨I had left her on stage for the whole number, and I thought, `You know, thisâ¨is the Sophie Tucker number and, you know, Latifah's so great with interactingâ¨with people. You know, she had her own talk show and so forth and so on. Iâ¨should get her into the audience during the number.' So the morning of, Iâ¨reblocked it, put her in the audience for most of the number, and I felt thatâ¨intimacy with the audience was something that would give her, I don't know...â¨â¨GROSS: This is a very double entendre kind of song, so doing the doubleâ¨entendres...â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: Yeah.â¨â¨GROSS: ...with the people appreciating it works.â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: Yes, closer to them...â¨â¨GROSS: Yeah.â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: Yeah, exactly, so she would get right into their face and beâ¨funny right there, you know?â¨â¨GROSS: Right.â¨â¨Mr. MARSHALL: I felt Sophie Tucker would have done that. She would have goneâ¨out in the audience and been kind of, you know, brass and kind of, you know,â¨sexy and funny with--and so I thought, you know, `Change it, Rob. Do it now,'â¨and she was great.â¨â¨GROSS: Rob Marshall directed and choreographed the new film "Chicago." Fromâ¨the new soundtrack, here's Queen Latifah singing "When You're Good to Mama."â¨â¨(Soundbite of "When You're Good to Mama")â¨â¨QUEEN LATIFAH: (Singing) ...Mama, Mama's good to you. If you want my gravy,â¨pepper my ragout. Spice it up for Mama. She'll get hot for you. When theyâ¨pass that basket folks contribute to, you put in for Mama, she'll put out forâ¨you. The folks atop the ladder are the ones the world adores. So boost me upâ¨my ladder, kid, and I'll boost you up yours. Let's all stroke together, likeâ¨the Princeton crew. When you're strokin' Mama, Mama's strokin' you. Soâ¨what's the one conclusion I can bring this number to? When you're good toâ¨Mama, Mama's good to you. Oh, yeah!â¨â¨GROSS: Coming up, we talk with the music supervisor of "Chicago," Paulâ¨Bogaev, about working with Renee Zellweger and Richard Gere on their singing.â¨This is FRESH AIR.â¨â¨* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *â¨â¨Interview: Paul Bogaev discusses his role as music supervisor ofâ¨the film version of "Chicago"â¨TERRY GROSS, host:â¨â¨As Rob Marshall just explained, he gave a couple of the leading roles in theâ¨musical "Chicago" to actors who weren't singers. My guest Paul Bogaev is theâ¨film's conductor and music supervisor. He helped Renee Zellweger and Richardâ¨Gere find and develop their singing voices for the film. Bogaev has also beenâ¨the music director of the Broadway productions of "Aida," "Sunset Boulevard,"â¨"Aspects of Love" and "Starlight Express." He previously worked with Robâ¨Marshall on the TV adaptation of "Annie," starting Alan Cumming and Kathyâ¨Bates. There's another credit that's on Bogaev's resume, but I think I shouldâ¨mention in the interests of full disclosure he is the brother of Barbaraâ¨Bogaev, who often guest hosts FRESH AIR.â¨â¨Before we talk about Paul Bogaev's vocal work with the stars of "Chicago,"â¨here's Renee Zellweger singing "Funny Honey."â¨â¨(Soundbite of "Funny Honey")â¨â¨Ms. RENEE ZELLWEGER: Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong, but he doesn'tâ¨care. He'll string along. He loves me so, that funny honey of mine.â¨Sometimes I'm down, sometimes I'm up, but he follows 'round like someâ¨droopy-eyed pup. He loves me so, that funny honey of mine.â¨â¨GROSS: I asked "Chicago's" music supervisor, Paul Bogaev, about how heâ¨approached working with Renee Zellweger on her singing.â¨â¨Mr. PAUL BOGAEV (Music Supervisor, "Chicago"): Well, the first thing that Iâ¨do is--you know, they come into my studio, which is in the place where we filmâ¨and it's a big room with a piano and some music stands, and I also have someâ¨chairs away from the music place, away from the piano, and a sofa. And theyâ¨are prepared to start, `Oh, God, he's going to make me start singing notes orâ¨scales,' and I take them over, you know, to the sofa, we sit down, we talk forâ¨half an hour or a little longer. The reason I do that is everybody comes toâ¨the table, as it were, with a different background in music. And I talked toâ¨Renee and I said, you know, like, `What do you listen to? Where are youâ¨from?' first, and I found out she was from Texas, which helped greatly becauseâ¨the character Roxie Hart is a transplanted Texas resident who's moved toâ¨Chicago. So she already has that, you know, regionalism that we could use.â¨And Renee has a slight Southern accent. And I asked her--you know, I said,â¨`Who do you listen to?' and she talked about blues and country. She wasâ¨totally unversed with this music, the music of the '20s, but totally eager toâ¨immerse herself in it. Renee has a great musicality. She just had never usedâ¨her voice.â¨â¨And what happened in the course of six weeks is I think she went from aâ¨comfortable range of four notes to about almost a two-octave range, which isâ¨16 notes, and it was a great, great surprise.â¨â¨GROSS: So how did you work with Renee Zellweger on increasing her range?â¨â¨Mr. BOGAEV: Well, I found a great voice teacher in Toronto named Elaineâ¨Overholt. And she was in quite a few of the sessions with me, and we workedâ¨technically on certain exercises away from the songs. And then I would takeâ¨the tune of the song and have Renee sing the tune of the song on a vowel orâ¨a--(singing) me-me-me-me-me-me, me-me-me-me-me-me. That's the song "Funnyâ¨Honey"--and she would just get used to making tones like that.â¨â¨I also had her speaking quite high in her range at some times. There's aâ¨point at the end of the song which is high belt and it's extremely angry. Andâ¨in order to get those high notes like that, I had her increase her voice likeâ¨that. And she started--she did it as an actress. I do this all the time withâ¨people, because I always want that extension from speaking into singing so itâ¨doesn't sound like something separate.â¨â¨GROSS: Well, that leads me to something I always wonder about.â¨â¨Mr. BOGAEV: Yeah.â¨â¨GROSS: What do you think is the connection between speaking and singing?â¨Where is it connected, and where is it different?â¨â¨Mr. BOGAEV: Well, your speaking range can be quite like your singing range.â¨We all have the possibility of a great amount of notes. Most people, and mostâ¨people in America--and I listen to myself, and I include myself in this--speakâ¨in a very limited amount of notes.â¨â¨I'll give you a good example. If you've ever seen Rex Harrison in the movieâ¨"My Fair Lady," there's one point where he has a line that's--`Loud Wagnerianâ¨mother, and a voice that shatters glass.' Well, he hits a note, a pitch,â¨because--in his speaking voice, that is so high, it's technically a highâ¨B-flat. That's like Pavarotti. If you had asked him to sing that note, heâ¨could never do it, but he actually got emotionally there with his voice.â¨â¨And that--I mean, that's where you can get. It begins with speaking. I thinkâ¨of singing as heightened speech. I don't think of it as something separate.â¨And when I see a movie, a movie musical, I loathe that problem that a lot ofâ¨people have with musicals, where they're talking and all of a sudden theâ¨singing starts and you feel a jolt that something is different, and youâ¨shouldn't feel that. It should feel it as just another form of expression.â¨â¨GROSS: Now let's look at Richard Gere.â¨â¨Mr. BOGAEV: Yeah.â¨â¨GROSS: What did you think were his strengths and weaknesses?â¨â¨Mr. BOGAEV: Richard Gere and I have a lot in common because we're both rockâ¨'n' rollers. He loves--he's a great musician, by the way. He plays fantasticâ¨guitar. I think he toured with Van Morrison a few years ago, in addition toâ¨piano and coronet. But he said (speaking in raspy voice), `Look, I haven'tâ¨sung in a long time, and I sing up here like that.' And he's scrunching hisâ¨face and pulling his neck up and doing everything wrong for this kind ofâ¨singing, which is, you know, open-throated and full.â¨â¨So we had to work very much on loosening him up, loosening his jaw andâ¨shoulders, you know, but not losing that raspy quality that, again, he broughtâ¨to the table that comes from his rock background. I didn't want him trying toâ¨imitate some Broadway singer.â¨â¨GROSS: Let's hear Richard Gere singing from the soundtrack recording ofâ¨"Chicago."â¨â¨(Soundbite of "All I Care About")â¨â¨Mr. RICHARD GERE: (As Billy) (Singing) I don't care about expensive things,â¨cashmere coats, diamond rings. Don't mean a thing. All I care about is love.â¨â¨Mr. GERE and Backup Singers: That's what I'm here for.â¨â¨Mr. GERE: (Singing) I don't care for wearing silk cravats, ruby studs, satinâ¨spats. Don't mean a thing. All I care about is love.â¨â¨Backup Singers: (Singing) All he cares about is love.â¨â¨Mr. GERE: (Singing) Give me two eyes of blue softly saying...â¨â¨Backup Singers: (Singing) I need you.â¨â¨Mr. GERE: (Singing) Let me see her standing there and honest, mister, I'm aâ¨millionaire.â¨â¨(Soundbite of music)â¨â¨Mr. GERE: (Singing) I don't care for any fine attire Vanderbilt might admire.â¨No, no, not me. All I care about is love.â¨â¨Backup Singers: (Singing) All he cares about is love.â¨â¨Mr. GERE: (Whistling)â¨â¨GROSS: That's Richard Gere singing from the soundtrack recording ofâ¨"Chicago." My guest, Paul Bogaev, supervised and conducted the music for theâ¨film.â¨â¨Paul, what are some of the exercises that you gave Richard Gere to help himâ¨develop the singing voice he needed for this role?â¨â¨Mr. BOGAEV: Well, one of the exercises is actually a rock 'n' roll exercise,â¨and it's a--I call it the Tina Turner scrunch. Now I know this is radio andâ¨it would help if I could show you this, but let me describe it. She doesâ¨something naturally--you know, Tina Turner, she uses her lower body, sheâ¨scrunches her nose up technically and she gets these incredible high notesâ¨that don't hurt her, go right over her vocal chords and, you know, uses herâ¨entire body and her face. And I use that with almost everybody. I used itâ¨with Catherine for her high notes which she did not come with and for Richardâ¨to open up.â¨â¨And I did a lot of exercises with him where he would loosen his jaw, you know.â¨And he would hum through the song, he would do--(singing) ma-ma-ma-ma-ma--thatâ¨through all the notes instead of just going to the words.â¨â¨Also, the other thing that I should tell you is I had him speak and act theâ¨words as I played the piano. That's a separate thing. And the reason I haveâ¨them do that is I want them to be able to act the songs as if they wereâ¨monologues, as if there were no music there. I don't want them to have toâ¨depend on the notes to carry the acting. I want to make sure that theyâ¨really, really understand the lyrics the way they understand their lines inâ¨the film.â¨â¨GROSS: So what were some of the exercises that you gave the non-singers inâ¨"Chicago" to help them reach those high notes they needed?â¨â¨Mr. BOGAEV: Well, the first thing I would start with is to get their speakingâ¨voice up to the height and emotion that these high notes carry. And a lot ofâ¨it has to do with generating the excitement. That's why you sing high notes.â¨I mean, you know, it should not just be singing, you know, a pretty loud note.â¨There's always some kind of great excitement.â¨â¨Now at the end of "All I Care About is Love," Richard's first big song, theâ¨last statement is the height of the excitement, the climax of the song. So Iâ¨would have him take his speaking voice like this (speaking loudly), `All Iâ¨care about is love! All I care about is love!' And he would extend hisâ¨speaking voice, not try to sing, just get that feeling and get that feeling inâ¨his body of where that goes, where it goes and, you know, where it settles inâ¨your sinuses, in your face. And the next thing we would do would be totallyâ¨go away from that and take the note. (Singing) Dee-dee-dee-dee-dee-dee-dee,â¨on a D, or (singing) Ya-ya-ya-ya-ya-ya-ya-ya! And he keeps singing that andâ¨then put the two together.â¨â¨But that was the first technical thing. It also involved relaxing hisâ¨shoulders, pulling his jaw down, relaxing every muscle in his body except hisâ¨legs, which you use as a strong base. And the other thing is all Robâ¨Marshall's choreography is very low-based. It's not tight. It's not like theâ¨Fosse style. It's based low in your body. So I had a great--it was perfect.â¨I had the great--you know, it was a great ally for me, this style of dancing,â¨because I could use it in helping people sing.â¨â¨GROSS: My guest is Paul Bogaev, the conductor and music supervisor of theâ¨film, "Chicago." More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.â¨â¨(Soundbite of music)â¨â¨GROSS: My guest, Paul Bogaev, is the conductor and music supervisor of theâ¨film "Chicago." He worked with the actors on their singing.â¨â¨Now women's voices tend to be a little different than men's in the sense thatâ¨women's voices--you have the head voice and the chest voice...â¨â¨Mr. BOGAEV: That's right.â¨â¨GROSS: ...and the difficulty of negotiating the passage in between them.â¨â¨Mr. BOGAEV: Yeah.â¨â¨GROSS: Men's voices tend to, I think, just be more chesty unless you'reâ¨singing falsetto and...â¨â¨Mr. BOGAEV: Right. Right.â¨â¨GROSS: ...unless you're Smokey Robinson or something.â¨â¨Mr. BOGAEV: Right. Right. Exactly. Yes. Yeah.â¨â¨GROSS: So is there a different technique you use for women then you do forâ¨men?â¨â¨Mr. BOGAEV: Yeah. Yeah. I don't--in the high notes, there's a thing calledâ¨a mix, which you just talked about in a way, that you try and negotiate theâ¨head voice and the chest voice together. For example, in "All That Jazz," theâ¨end of "All That Jazz"--(singing) No, I'm no one's wife. But, oh, I love myâ¨life and all that jazz! (In normal voice) That's very high, that note `jazz.'â¨â¨Catherine came to me with a great, big belt voice that stopped, I'd say, aboutâ¨a third lower, that's three notes lower than that note, `jazz.' And the firstâ¨thing I said to her, by the way, was, `Did you listen to Shirley Bassey?' Iâ¨know she's Welsh. She said, `Did I listen? I was, like, you know, winningâ¨contests imitating her.' So she came with that kind of big belt style. Whatâ¨I did with her was I used the '20s sound which is very nasal. And, also, theyâ¨spoke like that, I think, because they didn't have microphones and they had toâ¨project through their nasal passages. What I did with her is we did a lot ofâ¨notes up there, speaking up there. (Speaking loudly) All that jazz, jazz!â¨(In normal voice) She would get that in her head voice, make it nasal and allâ¨of a sudden, she reared back one day and she just belted the whole thing asâ¨you hear now in the soundtrack and when you see the movie.â¨â¨GROSS: I think most musicals are done with the songs prerecorded and then...â¨â¨Mr. BOGAEV: Oh, sure.â¨â¨GROSS: ...you lip-synch to it, particularly if it's a dance number.â¨â¨Mr. BOGAEV: Yeah.â¨â¨GROSS: You're not singing and dancing at the same time.â¨â¨Mr. BOGAEV: No, no, no, no. In fact, you are--from the beginning of time, Iâ¨think, it's always been you prerecord because of the sound quality in a studioâ¨vs. the sound quality on a set, which is quite poor for singing. And thisâ¨has been done for years. And the trick to this, the real trick, is in theâ¨preparation as we did. I prepared the singers knowing what the shots wereâ¨going to look like, knowing how they were going to be staged, how they wereâ¨going to breathe. For example, Renee, I think, sings a song "My Funnyâ¨Honey"--she's draped all over the piano. There's one point where she archesâ¨her back and sings a note. And I wanted that feeling. I wanted them aware ofâ¨what it was going to look like. So when you saw them and heard theseâ¨prerecords coming out of their mouths, they had a relationship to the picture.â¨â¨And then, secondary, the hard thing about lip singing is you just do not moveâ¨your lips; you really sing. You sing on the set and you breathe or else itâ¨looks completely fake.â¨â¨GROSS: Did the actors like to work hard at singing?â¨â¨(Soundbite of laughter)â¨â¨Mr. BOGAEV: Well...â¨â¨GROSS: You know--I mean, like, are they into it?â¨â¨Mr. BOGAEV: Yeah. Yes, I'm laughing about it. Well, you know, do you likeâ¨going to the gym all the time? That's my criteria about it. I'm laughingâ¨because there was one day when Renee Zellweger came in and--you know, I thinkâ¨she's a genius. She's a genius, and I think she's a perfectionist and she canâ¨be very hard on herself. And she, you know, came with the least background ofâ¨singing, and, in the course, improved the most of anybody.â¨â¨But she was frustrated. She was just, like, `I'm sick of this. I don't wantâ¨to do these exercises. I've had it. I'm just done. This is not getting anyâ¨better.' And I thought, `OK, I got to feel like what she's feeling.' I said,â¨`You know what? It sounds like when I go to the gym. I hate it. I hateâ¨every second of it. I hate it. It's so boring.' She says, `Oh, I love it.â¨I can do it for two hours.' I said, `Well, I'll make you a deal. If I sitâ¨here on the floor and do sit-ups, will you do these exercises?' And she did.â¨It was great, you know. So the answer to the question is: yes, some peopleâ¨get really frustrated and tired. But as she did, she slogged through and sheâ¨had a great breakthrough after that.â¨â¨GROSS: Have you had experiences working with actors who have to learn how toâ¨really sing for musicals...â¨â¨Mr. BOGAEV: Yeah?â¨â¨GROSS: ...have those experiences made you believe that anyone can sing, orâ¨has it made you believe that certain people can sing?â¨â¨Mr. BOGAEV: No. I will unfortunately say that there are limits. And theâ¨limits are if you plunk a note out and somebody hits another note and they areâ¨kind of--what's known as tone deaf, that you just better not bark up thatâ¨tree. You've got to be--when you say `non-singer,' let's say, a beginningâ¨singer. That's different. That's somebody who has basic pitch and rhythm,â¨and then you've got something to work with. But, man, you cannot draw bloodâ¨from a stone.â¨â¨GROSS: Well, Paul Bogaev, thank you so much for talking with us.â¨â¨Mr. BOGAEV: Thank you.â¨â¨GROSS: Paul Bogaev is the conductor and music supervisor of the filmâ¨"Chicago." The soundtrack has just been released.â¨â¨(Credits)â¨â¨GROSS: I'm Terry Gross.â¨â¨(Soundbite of "All That Jazz")â¨â¨Ms. CATHERINE ZETA-JONES: (As Velma) (Singing) Slick your hair, wear yourâ¨buckle shoes. And all that jazz. I hear that Father Dip is going to blow theâ¨blues and all that jazz.â¨â¨Hold on, hon, we're gonna bunny hug. I bought some aspirin down at Unitedâ¨Drug in case you shake apart and want a brand-new start to do that jazz!â¨â¨(Soundbite of music)