From the Archives: The Dalai Lama's Sister Shares Her Story.

Show: FRESH AIR
Date: JANUARY 23, 1998
Time: 12:00
Tran: 012301NP.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: Jetsun Pema
Sect: News; International
Time: 12:06

TERRY GROSS, HOST: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

My guest Jetsun Pema is the younger sister of the Dalai Lama. They're both dedicated to keeping alive Tibetan culture and religion, despite the Chinese occupation in which over 100,000 Tibetan monks and nuns have been killed or tortured.

Jetsun Pema grew up in Tibet and now lives in exile in Dharamsala, India, which is the seat of the Tibetan government in exile. She heads the Tibetan Children's Village, which educates exiled Tibetan children about their culture and religion. She was the first woman minister of the Tibetan government in exile, and was awarded the title "Mother of Tibet" by its national assembly.

Some of her family's story is told in the film "Seven Years in Tibet" and "Kundun," Martin Scorcese's new movie which opens Christmas Day. Pema tells her own story in her new autobiography.

When she was born in 1940, her brother was already recognized as the Dalai Lama. I asked if, as a child, she was expected to behave a certain way in his presence.

JETSUN PEMA, "MOTHER OF TIBET," AUTHOR, "TIBET: MY STORY," HEAD, TIBETAN CHILDREN'S VILLAGE: You know, His Holiness was already recognized and he was installed in the Potala. And so as a child, I always knew that I had a brother who was living up in the Potala.

GROSS: That's the palace?

PEMA: Yes, that's the palace. It's a -- you know, it's up on a hill and it's very impressive. There's over thousands of -- a thousand rooms. And it overlooks the little town of Lhasa. And when you heard your mother saying, you know, "His Holiness is living up there," I think it gave you the impression that he was very special.

And so whenever we went up those flights of stairs to go and see him, and he had all the -- you know, his monk attendants around him. And my mother and father would prostrate in front of him. And so, we also had to do that.

And with all that kind of, sort of, you know ceremony just to go and see him, I think it put a message in my head that he was somebody special, and somebody who had to be treated with great respect.

GROSS: Do you ever think what it was like for your parents to have their baby boy be "His Holiness" and to have to bow when they saw him?

PEMA: Well, for any Tibetan family, you know, for a Tibetan, parents to have their son recognized as a reincarnate lama -- it's a great privilege and an honor, because Tibetans by nature are very religious, and our religion is very important in our lives. It's not just religion as such, but it's become a way of life for the Tibetans.

So when you have a reincarnate lama as your son, I think parents are really awed by that, and they are -- they feel that it's an honor and they pay great respect to their incarnate, you know, reincarnate lama son.

GROSS: You were born about nine years before China invaded Tibet, and the way of life in Tibet was changed. Would you share with us some of your memories of life in Tibet before the Chinese invasion? Just about what day to day life was like for you?

PEMA: Well, for me, being born after His Holiness was recognized, you know, we had all the special privileges. My parents came from a little village in eastern Tibet. They were, you know, just farmers. And they -- all of a sudden, the Dalai Lama is discovered in their family, and then they were brought to Lhasa, to the capital of Tibet. And there they were given whatever they needed and they were, you know, a new -- big new house was built for them.

And I grew up in this. You know, I was born after His -- one year later. And I grew up with my young -- with my sister's children, a boy and a girl. And then many of our servants, they had their children and we had a wonderful time.

So my memories of Tibet was always always very happy memories, where we had just wonderful times and, you know, playing with our -- with my nephew and niece and the children of the servants. Then going to school to learn to read and write Tibetan. And also, you know, visiting the various monasteries and enjoying the various festivals that were celebrated in the city of Lhasa.

So, I think I just have just wonderful memories of Tibet.

GROSS: What do you think your parents expected that your life would be like when you grew up? Before the invasion?

PEMA: Oh, well, if -- if the Chinese didn't come to Tibet and, you know, then I think I might have stayed on in Lhasa and just got a Tibetan education and stayed on. But then because the Chinese entered Tibet at the end of 1949, then my sister -- my older sister -- she was also not feeling well, and my mother decided that we should accompany her to India and to remain in India to get an education.

And along with me, my sister's two children, they also came. And so the three of us, we were sent with my sister to India to study.

GROSS: So you were sent to India for your education, as a girl, and I believe you were educated in a Catholic convent. What was it like for you, as a Buddhist, as the sister of the Dalai Lama, to have a rigorous Catholic education? Did the nuns expect you to forsake Buddhism for Catholicism?

PEMA: Oh well, the education, you know, I was sent to a convent school because these convent schools in India recognized to be the best schools for girls in India in those days. And then also, the nuns, they were very kind and, you know, they were really good educationalists. Most of the girls in the school were either, you know, Hindus or Muslims or Buddhists, and they were not really -- I think about -- only about 10 or 15 percent were Catholics.

The nuns were all -- they, you know, understood our background and they didn't sort of really try to convert us. And for me, I already, you know, even at the age of 10, I already knew my own sort of roots and I was -- I knew I was Buddhist and I don't think I could change my religion, even at that age.

GROSS: My guest is Jetsun Pema, the younger sister of the Dalai Lama. She's written a new autobiography. We'll talk more after a break.

This is FRESH AIR.

If you're just joining us, my guest is Jetsun Pema. She's the sister of the Dalai Lama and president of the Tibetan Children's Village, which oversees the resettlement and education of Tibetan children in exile. And she's written a new book called "Tibet: My Story."

Your brother, the Dalai Lama, fled Tibet in 1959 and resettled in Dharamsala which has become the -- kind of like Tibet in exile. Were you living in Dharamsala at the time?

PEMA: No, I was still, when in 1959, when His Holiness, you know, after the Tibetans had the uprising against the Chinese, he had to leave Tibet and seek asylum in India. And at that time, it was my -- almost the final year of my schooling. So when he arrived, I was in school.

Then later, I joined him in Masouri (ph), in one of the hill stations where the Indian government had provided him with accommodation, and he was staying there. And in 1960, from Masouri, then he moved to Dharamsala. And in 1960 when I finished my school, then I went to Dharamsala and spent a couple of months there helping my sister with the work that she had -- she was doing and looking after the Tibetan refugee children.

GROSS: Your sister died in 1964, and you took over her work...

PEMA: That's right.

GROSS: ... overseeing the education and resettlement of Tibetan children living in exile in India. What was it like for you when you started doing this work -- watching children refugees come to India, often with no parents, either because their parents were killed or because their parents had to stay behind?

PEMA: Yes, it was -- in the beginning it was really very difficult situation for the children, as well as for those of -- you know, like my sister and all those ladies who were looking after the children. It was then, in the beginning, they didn't have proper food, clothing, shelter -- and everybody was coming. You know, the refugees were pouring into India from Tibet. And so many children were, you know, had skin infections and they had stomach ailments, and those earlier years of the refugees, it was really a terrible situation.

And many children lost their lives, and even many adults, you know, they lost their lives because they were not used to the climate in India. And also, they had to take long journeys across the mountainous regions to get into India. So, it was a very difficult time.

GROSS: What kind of schooling have you tried to give the children in India and how does it compare to the schooling that they would have received before the invasion in Tibet?

PEMA: Well, in -- today in exile, 99 percent of Tibetan children receive education, and it's a modern education. They learn since now -- since 1986, we have switched, you know, from English to Tibetan language as the medium of instruction up to the primary school level. Then from the -- from primary school onwards, then the medium of instruction is in English.

And they get a very strong foundation in their own, you know, mother tongue, and then also their education is a education which is recognized by the Indian central board of secondary education, because unless we give our children an education which is recognized in the country, it would be very difficult for our children to pursue their further education in the various training centers and, you know, in the colleges and in the universities within India.

But then at the same time, what we are also emphasizing is that His Holiness always says: "you must have a good education, but at the same time, in the end, you must be a good human being." So we want to give our children a value-oriented education so that these young people who finish their schools and go for further education and all, they should be good human beings and also good Tibetans.

GROSS: Some of the children have come to you as teenagers, and they have grown up in post-invasion Tibet. And I know you've had some trouble with these older teenagers who have come to Tibet. You write in your book that there has been some gang fighting and rock throwing. And it was very difficult to figure out how to deal with -- with these problems.

Would you tell us a little bit about what you tried?

PEMA: Yes, this -- you know, this special group of young people who are now coming in quite a large numbers, you know, escaping into exile, and these young people, most of them have never had any kind of formal education. And they have gone through a lot of hardship, and they've seen terrible things like they've seen their, you know, parents being sort of tortured in front of them; and they've seen their whole family disrupted because of the situation being what it is in Tibet.

And then -- now when they came into exile, you know, they were not able to tackle with the freedom that we enjoy. You know, they couldn't believe that they could just get enough to eat every day and that, you know, they've got clothing. And you know, we try to look after them as best as we could.

But then at the same time, they had so much of anger and hatred in them. So you know, we felt that they were very aggressive and they were impolite. So we discussed together how we should look after these young people, and the first thing that was to make them feel that all of us, and also the school facilities and whatever we had, that it was for them; that we cared for them; that we wanted to look after them.

And you know, like sometimes they would play football or volleyball, and they would kick the balls. And one day, two or three, you know, footballs were going, and we always said: "it doesn't matter. Let them, you know, sort of bring out their anger on the balls and on the field playing and all."

And then later, it's surprising how they changed in a couple of months. Their whole attitude changed and the expressions on their face changed and it was just through letting them know that we cared for them.

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is Jetsun Pema. She is the sister of the Dalai Lama and she's the president of the Tibetan Children's Village, which oversees the resettlement and education of Tibetan children in exile in India.

She's also written a new book called Tibet: My Story.

You write that ironically, exile has enabled the women of Tibet to evolve; to be liberated from the taboos which had previously confined them in Tibet. What are some of the taboos and restrictions that Tibetan women faced that you think they are getting out of now, living in exile?

PEMA: Well, in Tibet -- in the old Tibet -- Tibetan women didn't take any part in politics. And they didn't do any kind of, you know, like in the government service and all -- you didn't see any kind of -- any women. But then because of the occupation of Tibet by China and the brutality that the -- you know, we saw over there. And I think the women, they really felt this very much, especially, you know, when they saw their sons and husbands being, you know, so ill-treated. And they, many of them, lost their, you know, sons and husbands.

Then, the Tibetan women, like when we had the uprising on the 10th of March, it was the women of Lhasa who were the ones who instigated, you know, all the people to come and, you know, try to protect His Holiness. And that's the time when the women really sort of stood up and they united, you know, together.

And then now in exile, Tibetan women, they get equal kind of education with the boys, and Tibetan women are now, you know, involved in politics and now today, like the Tibetan government, you know, we have a democratic system of government. They are members of the parliament in exile, they are selected, you know, they are voted by the people. And there are 46 members of parliament, and of that, 12 are women, which means more than -- almost 35 percent are women.

So the Tibetan women are really coming forward and, you know, they are doing very well.

GROSS: I should point out that you are the minister of education.

PEMA: I was. Not anymore, no. I resigned.

GROSS: Former, OK.

PEMA: Yes, that's right.

GROSS: That's right.

PEMA: Yes.

GROSS: OK. And is your daughter elected to the parliament herself?

PEMA: Yes, yes. She's serving her second term.

GROSS: Mm-hmm.

PEMA: And yes, she's enjoying it.

GROSS: What do you miss most, geographically, about your country?

PEMA: Oh, I -- the mountains and the lakes and the, you know, the clear blue sky, and the fresh air -- unpolluted air. Yes.

GROSS: Describe what the mountains look like.

PEMA: The mountains?

GROSS: Yeah.

PEMA: Well, they look very, very high and, you know, magnificent and it's always -- you always have these mountains which are snow-covered very high up. And then you have these kind of, you know, wonderful grassland with lots of the yak and the sheep and all. And then it's all green and you have a beautiful river, sort of flowing through this large stretch of green grassland. And then far away, you see the mountain peaks.

GROSS: Your brother the Dalai Lama sent you back to Tibet in 1980 on a kind of fact-finding mission to see what life was like there. And one of the things you discovered was your parents' old house was now an inn for Chinese military officers. That must have been quite startling.

PEMA: Yes, it was quite startling. But then, what was more startling is that, you know, you have -- you see Lhasa. If you go up the Potala and you see -- look down into the city, all you -- you don't see anymore of the Tibetan houses. It's full of army, sort of barracks, and you have these horrible-looking sort of buildings, you know, four or five storeys high, with tin sheet roofs. And it's -- it's terrible.

GROSS: I know you have a small part in the movie Seven Years in Tibet, and in fact you play the role of your mother, the Dalai Lama's mother.

PEMA: Yes.

GROSS: And the movie Kundun, which is about the young Dalai Lama -- the movie made by Martin Scorcese that's opening later this year. Your daughter plays the role -- one of your daughters plays the role of...

PEMA: Yes.

GROSS: ... your mother.

PEMA: That's right.

GROSS: What did the Dalai Lama have to say about you and your daughter being involved in these movies?

PEMA: Oh well, he approved of it, you know, because we told him about these movies and he approved of that, yes. And also my children and my brothers, my other brothers, they all felt that they couldn't see our mother being portrayed by somebody else. So, they told myself and my daughter to, oh, go ahead and do play the role of, you know, our mother in the two movies.

GROSS: My guest is Jetsun Pema, the younger sister of the Dalai Lama. She's written a new autobiography. We'll talk more after a break.

This is FRESH AIR.

My guest is Jetsun Pema. She's the sister of the Dalai Lama and president of the Tibetan Children's Village, which oversees the resettlement and education of destitute Tibetan children in exile who have come to India.

At the end of your book, Tibet: My Story, you write: "today, I am alive, but who knows what may happen tomorrow. Throughout my adult life, death has been present. I am conscious that life is not eternal and that one must think about one's own impermanence."

How does Buddhism teach you to think about your own death?

PEMA: Well, Buddhism always, you know, teaches us that of impermanence. So, you know, death is always something which we think about. And then also you see, when you think of that, you always -- I always feel that you should be prepared for it -- prepared in the sense that, you know, because we believe in reincarnation and life after -- you know, in the next life.

So we feel that, at least I feel that, it's very important that you lead a good life so that, you know, you are prepared for the next life. And also when your death is sort of close by, that, you know, you can say to yourself that my life was meaningful. And that, I think, when you think of impermanence, then you always want to do something purposeful with your life.

GROSS: In your book, you write a little bit about how Buddhism has helped you cope with watching your people suffer. And you write that Buddhism teaches that some people suffer more; others less, and that the degree of difficulty we experience is determined by the acts of our previous existence. We therefore live according to our karma.

The thing is, though, if you look at it that way, it means that Tibetans are in a way responsible for their own suffering; a more political analysis would say, no, the Chinese government is responsible for the suffering. It's not about what the Tibetans did in their previous lives. It's about the -- the oppression of the Chinese government.

PEMA: Well, you know, we believe that in karma -- that's your sort of, you know, one's fate or whatever one did in the last life that it has an effect on this life. So like what happened to our country, it's a kind of collective karma of our people. And somewhere along the line, maybe, you know, we did some things which were not good, and now, sort of we have to live through that.

But then at the same time, you know, one's karma always can't be bad, so maybe I hope that soon, you know, the positive side will also come and that it will be easier for the Tibetans in the, you know, in the years to come.

GROSS: But you know what I mean, if you just look at it as karma, then the Chinese who are ruling Tibet now, you'd think, well, they're doing well, so they must have been good in previous lives, and the Tibetans who are suffering, well, they must have done something bad in previous lives. And it doesn't -- it doesn't seem, in a way, like a very fair way of politically analyzing the situation.

PEMA: Yes, but then it's not as simple as that. It's quite, you know, when you think of karma and how it affects your life. And you know, all that, it's quite sort of complicated and -- but yet, I think if you try to analyze it and to, you know, Tibetans, we -- you know, we always say we try to make our life simple.

And I think in that respect, we are quite lucky in the sense that, you know, Tibetan attitude is that: what is the past? It's, you know, it's gone. And tomorrow will take care of itself, and let's make the best of the present.

That's the kind of Tibetan attitude, so we don't make things too complicated, I think. You know?

GROSS: Your life has been taken over with the mission of caring for and educating Tibetan children in exile in India. Do you have any sense of what your adult life would have been like had Tibet not been invaded by the Chinese? Had you not had to take on this difficult mission of educating children in exile?

PEMA: I think it -- it would not be as interesting and as worthwhile as it is now.

GROSS: I guess that's kind of ironic.

PEMA: Yes. Yes. So maybe I have a, you know, for making my life more meaningful, maybe I have to be grateful to the Chinese.

LAUGHTER

GROSS: One last question: how often do you see your brother, the Dalai Lama?

PEMA: Oh, well, whenever I have some problems, I can always go and see him. But then, he's always so busy and traveling around. So unless I really have to see him, I don't sort of bother him. But then on his birthday and on special occasions, you know, he invites my brother -- my younger brother -- and myself, and if my -- some of our older brothers if they're there. Then we have a meal together. And so I see him, oh, quite a few times in the year.

GROSS: Jetsun Pema, I want to thank you very much for talking with us.

PEMA: Thank you.

GROSS: Jetsun Pema's new autobiography is called Tibet: My Story.

Dateline: Terry Gross, Philadelphia
Guest: Jetsun Pema
High: Jetsun Pema, sister of the Dalai Lama. She's written an autobiography about Tibet and her work there,"Tibet: My Story." In it she recounts life in Tibet before Chinese occupation, exile from Tibet, and her work as the president of the Tibetan Children's Village, which encompasses over 11,000 Tibetan refugees in India. Pema also plays the role of the mother of the young Dalai Lama in the film "Seven Years in Tibet."
Spec: Asia; Tibet; Human Rights; Dalai Lama; Movie Industry
Please note, this is not the final feed of record
Copy: Content and programming copyright 1997 WHYY, Inc. All rights reserved. Transcribed by FDCH, Inc. under license from WHYY, Inc. Formatting copyright 1997 FDCH, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to WHYY, Inc. This transcript may not be reproduced in whole or in part without prior written permission.
End-Story: Jetsun Pema
Show: FRESH AIR
Date: JANUARY 23, 1998
Time: 12:00
Tran: 012301NP.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: Tendzin Choegyal
Sect: News; International
Time: 12:25

TERRY GROSS, HOST: In 1995, I talked with the Dalai Lama's youngest brother, Tendzin Choegyal. They both fled Tibet in 1959 and have since lived in exile in Dharmsala, India. Tendzin Choegyal is the former -- is a former member of the Tibetan parliament in exile and has served as a special assistant to the Dalai Lama.

The Dalai Lama is the person believed to be the reincarnation of the previous Lama -- the living embodiment of the Buddha. I asked Tendzin Choegyal to explain the Buddhist belief that the soul of a dead spiritual leader is reincarnated in a newborn baby.

TENDZIN CHOEGYAL, MEMBER, TIBETAN PARLIAMENT IN EXILE AND BROTHER OF THE DALAI LAMA: Now, the whole concept of reincarnation -- it's based on karma. Karma means cause and effect. Now, lot -- all the courses that we have made in one life, when we die the result will also sometimes, you know, surface in the next life.

In other words, there is a transmigration of the consciousness. Our mental continuum continues to, you know, surface through all the forms that might, you know, reborn as. And we call that reincarnation. In other words, all sentient beings are reincarnates.

Now, in the case of the Dalai Lama, Panchen (ph) Lama and other high lamas, they are reincarnates who are recognized as particular reincarnation of a particular person. So, Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama belongs to the latter category.

GROSS: Now, how are they discovered?

CHOEGYAL: Well, there are various methods of discovery. Some will show signs when they are being born, say a house in which a high lama is born, there'll be auspicious signs like, you know, repeated rainbows then a strange phenomena of rain being fallen without any clouds. And then also dreams by the parents or by the devotees of that particular lama. And then sometimes, you know, mediums who go into trance and become oracles can also make predictions.

So, there are all sorts of ways.

GROSS: What was your parents' reaction when your brother was chosen as the new Dalai Lama? Were they shocked?

CHOEGYAL: Yeah, I suppose so, yes -- yes. You know, something -- just like lightning having struck the house or something like that. Yes.

GROSS: Mm-hmm.

CHOEGYAL: But my mother told me that when His Holiness the Dalai Lama was born, at that time my father was quite ill. But on the particular day of his birth, my father recovered from his illness and he was feeling very well. And then he went to the family altar and lit a, you know, butter lamp and made a pledge that this boy shall be a monk.

GROSS: What did your parents do? What kind of work did they do?

CHOEGYAL: Well, my parents were farmers, you know. They were making a living out of, you know, growing barley, wheat, peas, then mustard. And then, we also had quite a lot of domestic animals. Yeah, so we were farmers.

GROSS: How old were you when your brother was chosen?

CHOEGYAL: I wasn't born.

GROSS: Aha.

LAUGHTER

CHOEGYAL: I'm the youngest.

GROSS: So -- so when you grew up, you knew all along that your brother was being groomed to be the spiritual and political...

CHOEGYAL: Yes.

GROSS: ... leader of his people.

CHOEGYAL: Right. There is 12 years difference between His Holiness and me.

GROSS: Do you know the concept of sibling rivalry?

LAUGHTER

CHOEGYAL: Yes, I know -- I know very well, yes.

GROSS: Well, were you ever jealous of your brother? Or, was it just so phenomenally different than that?

CHOEGYAL: No, His Holiness always teases me saying that I had more time to be breast fed than he himself. So therefore he's a little jealous, I suppose.

GROSS: Now, did you grow up with him? Or was he taken away to a distant monastery for special training?

CHOEGYAL: No, His Holiness was recognized as the 14th Dalai Lama from the age of three, right?

GROSS: Mm-hmm.

CHOEGYAL: And then I think by the time he came up to Lhasa, he was I think four -- going to be four. And then he was kept, you know, in Dalai Lama's residence during summer in Lobelinka (ph) and during winter in Potala. But my mother and family members, they had access to him and he could visit, you know, our father and our mother whenever he liked.

GROSS: My guest is Tendzin Choegyal, the youngest brother of the Dalai Lama. We'll talk more after a break.

This is FRESH AIR.

My guest is Tendzin Choegyal, the youngest brother of the Dalai Lama.

What do you remember about the Chinese invasion? How old were you then?

CHOEGYAL: I was five that time, maybe late four and going into five. That was in 1949, '50 -- yes.

GROSS: Was it a very frightening period for you as a child?

CHOEGYAL: No, I don't think so because I was too young to realize the magnitude of the situation. It's very interesting. Probably the earliest memory that I have is -- of my life is that the morning that we were leaving Lhasa towards the Indian border in 1958.

And we started very early in the morning and my brother Lhosa Samden (ph) was a little ill. He couldn't walk properly. So he was coming down to the courtyard of the house where my mother was about to, you know, ride a horse. Then I could see my mother's outline and my brother's outline against the stars of the morning sky. And that's the earliest memory that I have.

So to answer your question, no, I wasn't frightened. I thought it's a good opportunity to go somewhere else.

GROSS: Yeah. When you fled...

CHOEGYAL: This was in 1958. But 1959, you know -- what do you call, experience? Something totally different -- I was 13 that time.

GROSS: Did you flee from Tibet with your brother...

CHOEGYAL: Yes.

GROSS: ... the Dalai Lama?

CHOEGYAL: Yes, on the same day, same night.

GROSS: In the same group?

CHOEGYAL: Yes, yes -- not together, but later on we became one group. From Lobelinka, we left -- we cross the river towards the south in small batches. But after some time -- after a few days, we were together. Yes.

GROSS: Can you share some of your memories as a 13-year-old boy fleeing Tibet to India?

CHOEGYAL: Yes, yes, yes. On the day of the escape, you know, just I think about one hour before the escape, my mother told me that I should go and change into secular dress. I was wearing a monk's robe that time. And she told me that we were going to some kind of a nunnery in southern Tibet. But then I knew probably we're going to escape to India.

And then, I went to change and I had borrowed some pistol -- one pistol. I had tucked it into my belt. I was carrying extra bullets. And you know, a 13-year-old boy ready to have a fight with the Chinese soldiers. And then at about 9:30, some soldiers came and told us that we are supposed to leave the house. And I couldn't help laughing at my mother and my sister, who were dressed as men.

GROSS: Oh.

CHOEGYAL: And so in a very serious situation, I was laughing all the time.

LAUGHTER

GROSS: They were dressed as men to disguise themselves?

CHOEGYAL: Yes, yes. So, we left the house.

GROSS: And they fooled the soldiers at the door?

CHOEGYAL: Yes, I think so. But I think the soldiers who were manning that gate probably knew what was happening, yes.

So anyway, we cross into empty land between the river and Lobelinka, and then after some time, we could see the lights of the Chinese camp down in the southwest of Lobelinka. And I do think at one point they, you know, not too far -- say the distance could be about 300 to 500 meters. We could see the lights of the camp very, very vividly -- very clearly.

And luckily, the wind -- you know, direction of the wind was from the Chinese campsite towards the east. So therefore, some of, you know, elders who were with me, they were saying that it's good that, so that they won't hear.

And then we crossed the river, and once we have crossed the river, we were waiting for our horses. And when we about to get the horses, a band of, you know, riders passed by and then people said: "His Holiness has just passed."

So, that's what I remember. And that time, I didn't fear anything. But now if I sort of look back, I don't think I could do it again. It was -- it's a very serious situation.

GROSS: You know too much now to have done that so fearlessly.

CHOEGYAL: Yes, yes, yes. Absolutely. Yes.

GROSS: You said you had a pistol with you.

CHOEGYAL: Yes.

GROSS: Would it have been against the teachings of Tibetan Buddhism to have used it?

CHOEGYAL: I think that time, I would have used it. But now, I hesitate.

LAUGHTER

GROSS: What's the difference between now and then? Is it your age or something else?

CHOEGYAL: No, because if you kill somebody, you know, sooner or later you will be killed. And just as you don't want to be shot, I don't think it's right to shoot other people. This is my present conviction.

GROSS: Would you like to return to Tibet sometime?

CHOEGYAL: Oh, definitely. Oh yes -- when Tibet is free.

GROSS: Do you think it will be?

CHOEGYAL: I have no doubt about it.

GROSS: In the documentary that you're featured in called "Shadow Over Tibet: Stories in Exile"...

CHOEGYAL: Yes.

GROSS: You talk a little bit about how torn you are between wanting to get even with the Chinese...

LAUGHTER

... and wanting to be very kind of peaceful...

CHOEGYAL: Yes.

GROSS: ... about everything.

CHOEGYAL: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

GROSS: So what -- maybe you could talk with us a little bit about the conflict that you feel over...

CHOEGYAL: Yeah.

GROSS: ... how to respond to...

CHOEGYAL: Yeah, yeah.

GROSS: ... the ...

CHOEGYAL: Yeah, now as a person -- as a person who's going to be 50 and who have some kind of access to spiritual life or teachings, I feel that violence, it's not right. Now that's the intellectual part of me.

Now, there is a sentimental part of me, you know, which most of the time predominates, you know, a person and me too. And on that level, I feel very bitter about the, you know, Chinese government and those Chinese who are responsible for all the things that they have done in my country.

So, that's what I feel. And I suppose I have to adjust these two so that, you know, I become harmonious once again. You know what I mean?

GROSS: Yes, yeah -- because you feel torn now.

CHOEGYAL: Yes.

GROSS: There have been many Tibetans and many Tibetan monks and nuns who have been imprisoned, tortured, killed during the Chinese occupation of Tibet.

CHOEGYAL: Yes.

GROSS: And I wonder what it's been like for you and for friends and colleagues of yours to not arm against the Chinese, knowing the kind of suffering that the occupation has resulted in.

CHOEGYAL: Mm-hmm. Yes. As I said before, you know, unless I'm angry at -- you know, my sentimental part don't come in, I think it's completely wrong to, you know, use violence. Because once you kill a Chinese, sooner or later when they have a chance, they will also take revenge again. So therefore, this vicious circle has to be stopped.

And just as I don't want to be killed and I don't want to kill too. Now, the thing is we have to use this nonviolence approach in such a way that it's applicable in the context of Chinese mentality. Right now, when we say nonviolence, I think the Chinese have nothing but contempt, because they cannot appreciate nonviolence.

GROSS: I think -- I think a lot of people have contempt for that concept. A lot of people think that it's cowardice...

CHOEGYAL: Yes.

GROSS: ... in disguise -- an intellectual form of cowardice.

CHOEGYAL: Right, right. But you know, nonviolence can be very active. It can be very -- it's not passive. It's active. It can be dynamic. So we have to find that and we couldn't head it off right now.

GROSS: Now what do you feel has been the active, dynamic part of your pacifism?

CHOEGYAL: No, no -- we could do something that's loud, but that doesn't kill anybody. So probably, this is the formula.

GROSS: Tendzin Choegyal is the youngest brother of the Dalai Lama. We'll hear more of our 1995 interview in the second half of the show.

I'm Terry Gross and this is FRESH AIR.

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

Back with Tendzin Choegyal, the youngest brother of the Dalai Lama. They both fled Tibet several years after the Chinese invasion. The Chinese have killed and tortured thousands of Buddhist monks and nuns, and destroyed the Tibetan monasteries.

Before, you were saying -- you told us that you're in conflict -- two sides of yourself -- the side that's interested in -- in, you know, almost fighting China...

CHOEGYAL: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

GROSS: ... to end the occupation, and the side which is the more dominant side...

CHOEGYAL: Yes.

GROSS: ... that believes that it would be a terrible mistake to fight back.

CHOEGYAL: Yes.

GROSS: Have you ever talked to your brother the Dalai Lama...

CHOEGYAL: Yes.

GROSS: ... about that division that you feel?

CHOEGYAL: Yes, yes, I have. I have.

GROSS: What does he say? Could you share that?

CHOEGYAL: All I get back, it's a big laugh.

GROSS: A big laugh?

LAUGHTER

CHOEGYAL: Yes. He thinks it's a stupid situation.

LAUGHTER

GROSS: What -- what -- your feeling? Or the situation in Tibet is stupid?

CHOEGYAL: No, no, no, no, no, no -- how I sort of, you know, my position, you know, probably he finds it very childish.

GROSS: Well no, what does he find childish about it?

CHOEGYAL: You know, this conflict that I have -- that my head says, you know, nonviolence. And my heart says, you know, a little bit of violence, so this conflict...

LAUGHTER

GROSS: But no -- why does he find that childish? I mean, that seems so natural to me. I mean, most of us live in a state of division...

CHOEGYAL: Yes, yes.

GROSS: ... about nearly everything, but...

CHOEGYAL: Yeah, that's true. On a conventional level, yes -- this is quite normal. But on the empirical meaning, then this conflict should not arise. You know what I'm saying? So in other words, I think we are just trying to activate some kind of illness which sometimes we enjoy, sometimes we don't. And probably in my case, if I analyze more, then probably it's the romantic side in me. You know what I'm saying?

GROSS: So -- so your brother the Dalai Lama thinks that the part of you that wants a little bit of violence is giving...

CHOEGYAL: Yes...

GROSS: ... in to instincts that you're really above, and that...

CHOEGYAL: Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes.

GROSS: How does it make you feel when he laughs when you tell him about what's tearing you apart?

CHOEGYAL: Well sometimes you feel very stupid.

LAUGHTER

Yes, I feel kind of stupid sometimes.

GROSS: But you would never feel, well, he doesn't appreciate how much -- how torn I am and how much agony this is causing me?

CHOEGYAL: No, I think His Holiness really understands people. You know, whether it be a Tibetan or a non-Tibetan; whether someone who has spiritual value or someone who doesn't have spiritual value -- he really gives you his 100 percent attention. But then to each he will respond in a different way. You know what I'm saying?

GROSS: Mm-hmm.

CHOEGYAL: But his hundred -- you know, his attention is 100 percent and he really make you feel that he has listened to you. And even though he won't say anything, just by eye contact, you feel that you have been understood. You know what I'm saying?

GROSS: I think so. Not that...

CHOEGYAL: Yes.

GROSS: ... I've necessarily experienced it.

LAUGHTER

You know, it does seem to me, if you don't mind my saying, that you laugh surprising spots yourself. You know, that when you talk about the periods when you were in the most pain, that's when you're very likely to laugh.

LAUGHTER

Here we go.

CHOEGYAL: Yes, I do laugh a lot. Yes.

GROSS: For example.

LAUGHTER

CHOEGYAL: Yes, yes, yes.

GROSS: So does it always seem slightly absurd to you? Your own predicaments?

CHOEGYAL: Yes, yes, yes. And in a deep level, life is absurd. I mean, what we do mostly, and we think it's very important, but if you really sit back and think, practically 99 percent of the things that we do and say, it's absurd. You know what I'm saying?

GROSS: I do, and yet for most of us the pain -- the pain and the discomfort, the kind of day-to-day...

CHOEGYAL: Well, no pain no gain.

GROSS: Right.

LAUGHTER

Tendzin Choegyal is the youngest brother of the Dalai Lama. Our interview was recorded in 1995.

Dateline: Terry Gross, Philadelphia
Guest: Tendzin Choegyal
High: Member of the Exile Tibetans' Parliament, the Assembly of the Tibetan People's Deputies, Tendzin Choegyal. He is the youngest brother of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Choegyal was featured in the documentary "Shadow Over Tibet: Stories in Exile."
Spec: History; Communism; Religion; Family; Tibet; Dalai Lama; India
Please note, this is not the final feed of record
Copy: Content and programming copyright 1998 WHYY, Inc. All rights reserved. Transcribed by FDCH, Inc. under license from WHYY, Inc. Formatting copyright 1998 FDCH, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to WHYY, Inc. This transcript may not be reproduced in whole or in part without prior written permission.
End-Story: Tendzin Choegyal
Show: FRESH AIR
Date: JANUARY 23, 1998
Time: 12:00
Tran: 012304NP.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: Jeffrey Fleishman
Sect: News; International
Time: 12:40

TERRY GROSS, HOST: The Dalai Lama and his family escaped from Tibet. Tibetan Buddhists are still trying to escape. Last year, I spoke with Jeffrey Fleishman, a reporter for the Philadelphia Inquirer.

He traveled with a group of 15 Tibetans, mostly monks and nuns, who escaped Tibet by making a treacherous journey that took 14 days, covered 400 miles and them took through the Himalayas. They endured frostbite, fatigue, and snow blindness eluding Chinese soldiers.

Several of the monks and nuns on the escape journey were former political prisoners. Last year, I asked Fleishman to describe their escape route.

JEFFREY FLEISHMAN, REPORTER, PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER: The escape route was 400 miles and it went -- it started in Lhasa, the capital of Tibet, and it went through Shigatse (ph) and then on to Shagar (ph). And most -- that leg of it was done on the truck.

And then the last 90 miles were done on foot, and they went from Shagar down into the heart of the Himalayas where you could see Mount Everest off to the side. And then -- and then it continued further into the Himalayas until they hit the Nangpala pass, which at the top of that is the border between Nepal and Tibet.

And then once they crossed that, they headed for a little town called Chelsuh and then eventually on to Kathmandu, where they were put in a refugee center.

GROSS: Who was the guide?

FLEISHMAN: The guide has been doing this for probably four or five years. His name is Dorgi (ph), which is the equivalent to "John" in Tibetan, and that's all we used was his first name. And he was very conservative, but he had the look of a warrior.

And he immediately -- with the Tibetans, his presence was immediately calming to them because he -- obviously, they were escaping for their lives and there was a lot of fear and tension through most of the trek. And when he was around, he was just a very calming influence. He's about five foot six, 129 pounds, but he could carry 100 pounds on his back going up a steep mountain pass while he was smoking a cigarette. I mean, he was just an amazing character.

And when -- during the trek, especially at night when the Tibetans would grow tired, I noticed that they would walk up to the front of the pack where he was and reach out and hold his hand, almost like they were getting strength off his aura. And then after a few minutes they would let go and another one would replace him. And it was sort of -- he was an energy field for them and they stuck very close to him and listened to everything he said.

GROSS: What was his motivation? He had made this trek a lot of times and saved, according to your article, about 500 people?

FLEISHMAN: Five-hundred people. His motive -- I asked him that and -- because I wanted to -- wanted to know what made this man do this and risk his life, not only of being captured, but going over these mountain passes all the time, back and forth, where the conditions were extreme. And he gave me a two -- a two-pronged answer.

And the first part was, he -- first of all, Tibetans are so honest that when you ask them a question, they -- they just open right up to you. It's amazing. It's so different from being a journalist in the West and interviewing people where there's always sort of somebody hiding something and you're always wondering. The Tibetans just tell you like it is.

And I asked him, and he said well, first of all, that he just -- it was a job. And they paid about -- the equivalent of about $250 American dollars, each one of them, to get over. And there were no other jobs for Tibetans, really, in Tibet as China was squeezing the country. And so this was a -- this was a way of income for him.

Secondly and most importantly, after spending time with him, his second answer I think was the more accurate. And he said -- he was a very humble man and he said: "look at me. I don't -- I don't speak even my language very well. I'm uneducated and I can't really help the Tibetan cause. But if I get these" -- and he pointed over to the monks and nuns -- "if I can get our educated out who know English, who know Tibetan, who can do something for our cause, then that is what my duty -- and that is what I must do to help -- to help my people."

And after spending time with him, I think that was his real motivation.

GROSS: How would he deal with it if somebody was lagging behind? Or you know, they were having trouble with their footing on the mountain passes? Would he be sympathetic or just urge them to just keep moving?

FLEISHMAN: He was sympathetic to a point. And the -- the first -- the first night we found out only how far sympathy went. And it was -- there were three people on -- three monks on the trek who were fairly well-known political dissidents, and he had to get them out.

And he -- he cut the size of the trek down to 15 people to get these people out. And this was a fast-moving trek and he made that known up front; that we have to move. We can't stop. We have to hike 10 and 12 hours a night and rest little and get up and go again.

The first night, we had with us a nun who had tried twice to escape, and she had hepatitis. And the time previous to this one, the hepatitis made her turn back. She was very ill. She was really dying. And I don't know why he brought her along this time. I think she begged him. She had a strong will and she wanted to get out. And he -- she came with her best friend who was also a nun.

And as we left the first night's trek, only about a half an hour into the trek, maybe not even that long, she lagged further and further back and he knew that...

GROSS: The nun with hepatitis?

FLEISHMAN: The nun with hepatitis lagged farther, further back. And he knew she's never going to make it. We've got seven days in Tibet ahead of us, over -- and then we have to go over the Nangpala Pass at 18,500 feet. She's not going to do it. So he stopped the trek.

He turned back to her. She and her friend kind of came up very slowly, both crying. And said -- he said to her: "you're not going to make it" -- the friend who had hepatitis. And she just dropped to the ground and said: "please, take me. I can't -- I can't go back."

And then he looked to her friend, and she -- he said to her: "you have to stay with her." And she bowed her head. She was very humble and said she had just gotten out of prison. And she said: "please don't make me stay. I have to go. It's terrible, but I have to go." And her friend who had hepatitis who was on the ground, grabbed this woman's leg, and it was her desperate attempt to stay with her. And -- and she -- the friend who was standing broke that grip and got to the healthy side of the pack.

And I remember standing there in the dark and the starlight was so bright and I just remember thinking -- it's -- it was like the pack of animals when it sensed a sick one, and all the healthy ones gathered on one side. And Dorgi, who was the guide, bent down to this kind of -- just silhouette in the shadow and said -- and you just heard this crinkle of money, and he handed it to her and he said: "try to get to the road if you can in the morning." And then he got closer to her and he whispered in her ear, and he said: "I promise you within the month I will get you to freedom."

And then just as -- just as quiet a moment as that was, he stood up, turned around, and just started marching as fast -- and everyone just fell in formation with him. And everyone just looked back from time to time until this woman was just melted into the darkness. And that was first night. So you knew that he was sympathetic, but the mission was clear -- and that was escape and freedom. And there were casualties along the way like this woman.

GROSS: Before you crossed the border, you were all concerned about being discovered by Chinese guards.

FLEISHMAN: Right.

GROSS: Chinese military?

FLEISHMAN: Chinese military. We constantly saw, during -- during the truck ride, convoys of Chinese military passing us all the time. And there were checkpoints all over the place.

GROSS: What was the worst you came across in the weather and in the climb?

FLEISHMAN: The climb itself -- the worst we came across was the -- was the last night that we were with him. It was a trek that left -- the whole day we had spent cramped in a sheep pen with -- with sheep manure just all over -- all over the ground. And we had to hide there all day. And the sun was beating down and that -- that took enough out of everybody.

And the Tibetans were playing cards and they were -- some were chanting and praying. And you had this whole sort of camaraderie in this tiny sheep pen about the size of a living room. And then when the sun went down, the temperatures dropped drastically that night. And at about 7:00 or 7:00, we took off walking.

And Dorgi the guide said we had to cross three rivers that night and then get across a valley and into the mountains before the Chinese -- so when the sun came up, we weren't visible to the Chinese. And that was the worst night, because the rocks in this terrain would -- would be like large, almost ostrich eggs. And they would stick up all over.

So you would walk and you couldn't see that well, and you'd hit a rock and you'd fall over. And most of us had on 30-pound, 25- or 30-pound packs. The altitude, being that high, would suck the air right out of you. You'd fall over. You'd have to get back up, and sometimes they would -- somebody would help one another back up. But Dorgi kept it moving and moving, so you were constantly in this state of flux, even when you fell.

And you knew that if you fell far behind, you could be lost out here. And you constantly heard the deep-throated sounds of these dogs that were trained by Tibetan farmers, and sometimes they were wild dogs, but they were trained to go to the throat, to protect their barley and wheat fields. So, you were constantly worried about that.

So all these little worries accumulated, and then when the altitude set in on top of that, and then the cold, then it got -- I remember I would carry my water bottles to give me a rhythm in walking and they just both froze solid while the water was moving, while I was walking. So it was incredibly cold, and as soon as you'd stop, you'd just immediately be -- become shivering all over the place.

GROSS: The people escaping were Tibetan Buddhists. And I'm wondering if you were able to observe anything about how their faith affected them during this period of incredible suffering and tension?

FLEISHMAN: Mm-hmm. Every morning I woke up, it was to the sound of a chanting -- this quiet sort of almost lullaby going on over my head in my sleeping bag. There was this one monk who was in prison and tortured for six years, and he just chanted every day. And he was -- he was -- he was kind of a piece of solace in all that -- all of that. And they were all like that.

There was -- there was one, "the old monk," we called him. He was only 57 years old, but compared to everybody else on the trek, he was old. And he just had this bamboo sack -- a pack on his back, with his ancient scriptures. And he was so worried that if the Chinese touched those scriptures, they would be soiled. And it was his life's mission to get these out to freedom, more so than his life, was to get these things to freedom.

And their whole belief and system of suffering and accepting suffering, and through other people suffering, to suck out that compassion and sort of move toward your own enlightenment was constantly prevalent on this trip.

GROSS: My guest is Jeffrey Fleishman, a reporter for the Philadelphia Inquirer. He accompanied a group of Buddhist monks and nuns escaping from Tibet to India. We'll talk more after a break.

This is FRESH AIR.

Back with reporter Jeffrey Fleishman of the Philadelphia Inquirer.

Fleishman, along with an Inquirer photographer and an interpreter, accompanied a group of 15 Tibetans who fled persecution by the Chinese government in Tibet and escaped through the Himalayas. The journalists had to drop out of the final leg of the escape after the photographer suffered severe exhaustion. But they met up with the Tibetans in Nepal.

Fleishman told me that perhaps the most treacherous part of the Tibetans' journey was crossing over from Tibet into Nepal.

FLEISHMAN: What the Tibetans faced was the -- the Nangpala Pass that they had to go up to reach that border was 18,500 feet. So, the oxygen level was just about cut in half, maybe more, than what it would be at elevation where we are now in the United States.

And what happened, there -- as they were going up there, they had already had two or three days with no water, no food. And they tried to melt snow up on the pass to try -- with a little candle to get water, but that didn't work. And they realized they couldn't stay there. They had to move. These -- this path they followed was part of an old, ancient caravan route.

And so there were -- they followed this up, and it's a pass that tens of thousands of Tibetans have taken to freedom since 1950 when China invaded. And they -- they had actually come across dead bodies of Tibetans who had died the year before and were frozen in the snow. And nomads had taken these bodies and put them in burlap. And this trek actually came upon them.

And then when they finally reached the top of the pass, you would think there would be this euphoric thing. "We've reached freedom. We've stepped from China into -- into freedom." But there wasn't.

There was all this concern about, OK: "we left the Chinese police. We left the possibility -- and the army -- of being beaten, of being tortured more, maybe being killed and thrown in the river." That's what they really believed that -- if they were caught by the Chinese, that they would never make it to prison.

Then they -- then they crossed into Nepal and that apprehension only went down a few notches, because they knew they were carrying bribe money for the Nepali police, because the Chinese would pay the Nepali police for every Tibetan they returned, so they had to do -- you know, an out-bribing them game.

So once they hit that, they felt a little relaxation. They carried these white paper squares with Buddhist deities on them, and when they did cross the pass, they threw these squares up into the air, and gave -- let out a little cheer. And then they draped a white scarf around a pole where there were many already faded and tattered and ripped white scarves of already -- Tibetans who had already gone through there.

And then they moved on again. They knew that until they got to that refugee center, they were never -- they were never safe. But once they hit that center, they -- their eyes just -- they knew it. And when they were finally told "you're OK now" -- it took them about maybe an hour to really believe that. They wondered: "well, maybe this guy will turn us in. Maybe the guy running the center is really Chinese."

They were constantly living in fear. And after about an hour, they realized: "I'm free."

GROSS: Do you know what any of them are doing now?

FLEISHMAN: The goal of many of them was to be, as I say, be in the presence of the Dalai Lama. That was their -- the thing that kept them going was the Dalai Lama: "the Dalai Lama, we must be in his presence." That, to them, is the pinnacle. That's what fueled them and kept their muscles moving and moving. They wanted to -- and being in his presence is really being in Dharmsala, India and close to him.

Some of them wanted to learn English, and so they knew that -- like Tashi (ph) said he wanted to master his English because he knew that he had to -- that politics were the only way to bring change about in his country. And many of them wanted to learn English because they -- they said that is the international language. That is the way to bring change about. We have to communicate.

And that -- that's why -- that's why the Chinese didn't -- although it's a strange conundrum because the Chinese, for the most part, don't want Tibetans in Tibet. So, why won't they let them escape? Why all this rigmarole about stopping these people from going over mountain passes? What we came to find out was that the monks and nuns are the best and the brightest.

And I think the Chinese have seen what the Dalai Lama can do on the world stage -- commanding attention in Hollywood, Sweden. And these articulate types of people, they don't want out. And so -- and they're also scared of -- they'll learn -- they'll learn the activist and dissident ways and sneak back in and teach others that way. And so many of them want to work toward improving their country.

GROSS: Jeffrey Fleishman is a reporter for the Philadelphia Inquirer. He's now reporting from Bosnia. Our interview was recorded a year ago.

Coming up, the Dalai Lama's translator.

This is FRESH AIR.

Dateline: Terry Gross, Philadelphia
Guest: Jeffrey Fleishman
High: Philadelphia Inquirer reporter Jeffrey Fleishman. He traveled across the Himalayan Mountains with a group of Buddhist monks and nuns, who were fleeing from persecution by the communist Chinese government in Tibet. Some of them had been imprisoned and tortured by the Chinese. If caught, they would be sent back to prison and tortured. During their 14-day trek they experienced frost-bite, snow blindness, oxygen- then air, pain, and hunger. Fleishman's story appeared in the Inquirer magazine section, December 15, 1996.
Spec: Asia; Tibet; Politics; Government; Culture; China; Communism
Please note, this is not the final feed of record
Copy: Content and programming copyright 1998 WHYY, Inc. All rights reserved. Transcribed by FDCH, Inc. under license from WHYY, Inc. Formatting copyright 1998 FDCH, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to WHYY, Inc. This transcript may not be reproduced in whole or in part without prior written permission.
End-Story: Jeffrey Fleishman
Show: FRESH AIR
Date: JANUARY 23, 1998
Time: 12:00
Tran: 012304NP.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: Geshe Thupten Jinpa
Sect: News; International
Time: 12:55

TERRY GROSS, HOST: Geshe Thupten Jinpa has been a translator for the Dalai Lama for the past 11 years. Jinpa was born in Tibet in 1958 and fled with his family to India after the failed 1959 Tibetan uprising against the Chinese occupation.

At the age of 11, he entered a Buddhist monastery run by Tibetan monks in exile. Jinpa now lives in England where he's been studying Western culture and philosophy so he can act as a bridge between the East and the West.

I spoke with him in 1995 after he had translated a book by the Dalai Lama called "The World of Tibetan Buddhism." I asked Jinpa about the first time he met the Dalai Lama.

GESHE THUPTEN JINPA, PRINCIPAL TRANSLATOR FOR THE DALAI LAMA: Well, I first met him when I was just a boy, at the age of seven. I was in a kindergarten school and -- yeah, I may have been actually five or six. And His Holiness visited the school. And I remember because I was chosen as the boy -- you know, we had a boy and a girl to offer him, you know, a flower garland. I was chosen as the boy.

GROSS: Did that have an impact on you?

JINPA: Definitely. And since then, I've always wanted to -- to become a monk, because after that, I've had exposure to several monks. You know, I've met them, mainly in the schools. They were teachers. And to me, all these monks have -- you know, sort of symbolized a kind of a life of serenity. And they were all, you know, extremely compassionate and gentle, yet strong.

So for me, they were -- they have always been a kind of a, you know, hero.

GROSS: Are there certain Buddhist concepts or stories that are particularly difficult to translate into English?

JINPA: Yes, there are some concepts which are quite difficult to translate, and also which it requires a certain degree of -- of sort of -- sort of reorientation of one's own outlook. And also, some concepts which have a potential for misunderstanding and misinterpretation.

For example, like the doctrine of karma is sometimes misunderstood as a kind of a fatalistic doctrine -- that because such and such a person has done some bad act in the past, you know, the suffering that he's, you know, undergoing now is something that he deserves, you know, deserves -- and it is his bad luck.

There is that potential for misinterpretation of some of the basic ideas of Buddhism.

GROSS: Yeah, I think karma is often translated into the West as what comes -- what goes around, comes around.

JINPA: Yes, that's right. And also some of the people think it's fate.

GROSS: Mm-hmm.

JINPA: There is the actual original word "karma" has a much more proactive connotation, and literally means action.

GROSS: Are there Western ways of thinking that have been difficult for you to translate to the Dalai Lama?

JINPA: I remember -- I mean, generally speaking, His Holiness' English is very good, so luckily, you know, I don't have to translate that much back to Tibetan. But I do remember once, this was quite a while ago in California. There was a conference on Buddhism and psychotherapy -- a dialogue. And the -- the question of self-hatred and sort of, you know, based on low self-esteem came up.

And His Holiness, you know, couldn't believe there is such a thing as self-hatred. You know, he kept shaking his head and he said: "how come?" You know, everybody -- everybody, you know, at the deep down love themselves -- you know, attached to themselves, you know, would want to live, you know. And how is it possible?" I mean, he felt that the very concept of self-hatred was in some sense incoherent, and it doesn't -- it doesn't make any sense.

So I remember the panelists, you know, spending at least five to 10 minutes trying to convince him there is such a thing; that the concept is not only coherent, but there are people, you know, who suffer from this and this -- this problem.

So that was one situation, you know, one incident there, you know, I -- you know, I saw that there were certain concepts, you know, particularly coming from Western psychology, which were quite difficult to understand.

GROSS: That's so interesting to me -- the whole idea of finding the concept of self-hatred incomprehensible.

LAUGHTER

JINPA: Yes.

LAUGHTER

And -- and -- and the psychologists -- they were so sort of, you know, surprised. I mean, they were so amazed and -- and you know, after the conference was over, they started asking me -- they were saying: "does that mean, you know, no Tibetans suffer from self-hatred? Does that mean no Tibetans have loss of esteem?"

And I said: "honestly, I don't know."

LAUGHTER

GROSS: Geshe Thupten Jinpa is a translator for the Dalai Lama. Our interview was recorded in 1995.

I'm Terry Gross.

Dateline: Terry Gross, Philadelphia
Guest: Geshe Thupten Jinpa
High: Geshe Thupten Jinpa, the principal translator for the Dalai Lama. Thupten Jinpa was a refugee in India as a child, became a monk at a Tibetan monastery, and is now working on his Ph.D. at Cambridge University. He is the translator, editor, and annotator of "The World of Tibetan Buddhism" (Wisdom Publications) written by the Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama is the spiritual and political leader of the Tibetan people and won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1989.
Spec: Asia; Tibet; Politics; Government; China; India; Communism; Dalai Lama
Please note, this is not the final feed of record
Copy: Content and programming copyright 1998 WHYY, Inc. All rights reserved. Transcribed by FDCH, Inc. under license from WHYY, Inc. Formatting copyright 1998 FDCH, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to WHYY,