Actor, comic, writer, director Albert Brooks

DATE October 26, 2001 ACCOUNT NUMBER N/A
TIME 12:00 Noon-1:00 PM AUDIENCE N/A
NETWORK NPR
PROGRAM Fresh Air

Filler: By policy of WHYY, this information is restricted and has
been omitted from this transcript

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Interview: Al Kooper talks about his songwriting career
TERRY GROSS, host:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

My guest, Al Kooper, has a new double CD called "Rare & Well Done" that
collects his greatest and most obscure recordings from 1964 to 2001. Kooper
played in The Blues Project, then co-founded Blood, Sweat & Tears and wrote
most of their early songs. He played on Dylan's albums "Blonde on Blonde" and
"Highway 61 Revisited," and played the famous organ line on Dylan's "Like a
Rolling Stone." Kooper also played on recordings by the Rolling Stones, Jimi
Hendrix and George Harrison, and produced records by Lynyrd Skynyrd, Nils
Lofgren and Rick Nelson.

One of the previously unreleased tracks on his new CD is his 1964 demo of his
song "Something Going On," which he wrote for Blood, Sweat & Tears.

(Soundbite from "Something Going On")

Mr. AL KOOPER: (Singing) You know, I woke up this morning. First thing I
did was to look into your eyes. And in that space where I used to find so
much truthfulness, there was a stone-cold pack of lies.

You know, something's going on. You know, something's going on, but I don't
know what it is. You know, something's going on, people. I got to get to
the bottom of this. Hey, hey.

GROSS: Al Kooper started his career when he was still a teen-ager. At the
age of 13 he became the guitar player in the Royal Teens after they had their
hit "Short Shorts." And through his new connections he started writing songs
for pop performers, working out of one of the New York buildings on Broadway
that headquartered many of the pop writers of the '50s and early '60s.

I spoke to Al Kooper in 1998 after he revised and expanded his memoir,
"Backstage Passes."

(Excerpt from 1998 FRESH AIR interview)

GROSS: Your big pop success as a songwriter was "This Diamond Ring," which
was recorded by Gary Lewis & The Playboys. Gary being Jerry Lewis' son. And
you say in your memoir that you wrote that song with an R&B group like The
Drifters in mind, so how did it end up being performed by Gary Lewis instead
of The Drifters?

Mr. KOOPER: Boy, it beats the hell out of me. I was amazed. My publisher
at the time, Aaron Schroeder, saw me in the hallway and he said, `Well, we got
a record on that Drifters song you wrote.' I said, `Oh, The Drifters cut it?'
He said, `No, no, no. Snuff Garrett cut it.' Snuff Garrett was a West Coast
producer known for producing Bobby V and people like that. And I said, `Since
when is Snuff Garrett cutting R&B records?' He said, `Well--well, he's not.'
I said, `Oh, dear.' He said, `Well, I have the record. Do you want to come
upstairs and hear it?' I said, `Well, just out of curiosity I'd like to hear
what Snuff Garrett did with "This Diamond Ring."' And so I went upstairs and
he played the record and I was just heartsick. I thought it was terrible. I
was just--I admonished him after he played the record and said, you know,
`Don't even waste my time playing me things like this again. That's the worst
thing I ever heard.' Of course, two...

GROSS: And, of course, it became a huge hit.

Mr. KOOPER: Yeah, two months later is was number one in the country. And I
said, `Hey, I wrote that song.'

GROSS: Now what do you think about the arrangement now?

Mr. KOOPER: Oh, I still hate it. I still think it's an insipid, horrible
record and, as a matter of fact, I went in later years, and at much expense to
my credibility, recorded the song on one of my solo albums to show people
where it came from and what it was like, because I actually think it's a good
song. I just couldn't stand the Gary Lewis interpretation.

GROSS: OK. We're going to hear both of those versions back to back. We're
going to hear the Gary Lewis version and then the version that you cut with
the arrangement that you originally had in mind, the version you cut in the
1970s. So here we go.

Mr. KOOPER: You know, it's even...

GROSS: Yeah.

Mr. KOOPER: It's even funnier if you play it the other way around. If you
play mine first and then play Gary Lewis', which is, you know, the way I saw
it, it's even funnier that way.

GROSS: I'm willing to give that a shot. Is our engineer ready to do that?

Mr. KOOPER: OK.

GROSS: Our engineer's ready to do that. Let's go. This is Al Kooper,
followed by Gary Lewis' version of Al Kooper's song "This Diamond Ring."

(Soundbite from "This Diamond Ring" by Al Kooper)

Mr. KOOPER: (Singing) Who wants to buy this diamond ring? She took it off
her finger. Now it don't mean a thing. No.

This diamond ring don't shine for me anymore. This diamond ring don't mean
what it did before. So if you've got somebody whose love is true, won't you
let it shine for you now.

(Soundbite from "This Diamond Ring" by Gary Lewis & The Playboys)

Mr. GARY LEWIS: (Singing) Who wants to buy this diamond ring? She took it
off her finger. Now it doesn't mean a thing.

This diamond ring doesn't shine for me anymore. This diamond ring doesn't
mean what it did before. So if you've got someone whose love is true, let it
shine for you.

GROSS: OK. Al Kooper, guess what? I like the Gary Lewis version. I'm not
saying I don't like yours, but I like the Gary Lewis version. I think it's a
fun pop hit.

Mr. KOOPER: Well, so did many millions of people.

GROSS: Is the interview over now?

Mr. KOOPER: It's a sad thing.

GROSS: No, but it's pop. I mean, it's--you know, it's got...

Mr. KOOPER: It's happy. You can do the Mouse to it. It's, you know...

GROSS: You don't like, like, that kind of, like, kettle drum or whatever it
is on there?

Mr. KOOPER: Timpani. No, no. It's great in, you know, certain things. It
was great in the 1812 Overture.

GROSS: So what did the Gary Lewis version do for your career? Did it help
it a lot?

Mr. KOOPER: Yeah, it helped it tremendously as a songwriter. Right after
that we had another top-20 record by Gene Pitney called "I Must Be Seeing
Things." And...

GROSS: Want to sing a few bars of that to refresh our memory?

Mr. KOOPER: Well, I'll recite the opening lyrics. See, I used to write the
music and I wrote with two other guys and they wrote the words, as I was sort
of lyrically deficient at the time and, actually, lyrically challenged at the
time. And this one, typical of its time, said: `Isn't that my girl? And is
that my best friend? Aren't they walking much too close together? And it
don't look like they're talking about the weather.' And that guy goes, `Hey,
I must be seeing things. This can't be,' like that. That was typical of
those songs we wrote at that time.

GROSS: My guest is Al Kooper. He has a new double CD called "Rare & Well
Done: The Greatest & Most Obscure Recordings 1964-2001." We'll talk more
after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

GROSS: Al Kooper has a new double CD retrospective called "Rare & Well
Done." I spoke with him in 1998 after he revised and expanded his memoirs.

(Soundbite from 1998 FRESH AIR interview)

GROSS: Well, in the 1960s you met Bob Dylan through Dylan's record producer
of the time, Tom Wilson. And this was in what year; about...

Mr. KOOPER: 1965.

GROSS: '65. And Tom Wilson had just cut Dylan's first electric single,
"Subterranean Homesick Blues," and he invited you to watch Dylan at a session.
And you were determined, you say, to do more than watch. You wanted to
actually play on it. The session turned out to be the session for "Highway 61
Revisited," in which "Like a Rolling Stone" was recorded. And you played
Hammond B3 on "Like a Rolling Stone." How did you get to play on it?

Mr. KOOPER: Well, I was just determined to play. I was a guitar player at
the time and I stayed up all night practicing and I had, actually, an inflated
opinion of my ability as a guitar player. And I got to the session and, at
the time I was playing guitar on records as a session musician, so the other
musicians that were there early when I got there did not think it was unusual
to be there with my guitar because I'd played sessions with them and they knew
that I did session work. And I set up my stuff and I sat down and I waited.
And Dylan came in with a guitar player, who was roughly my age. And he sat
down and started warming up and I realized I was in way over my head. He was
the best guitar player I'd ever heard in my life just warming up. Just those
things he was playing were way beyond my grasp as a player. And I said to
myself, `I've got to get out of here before I really embarrass myself.' So
when there was a moment I took my guitar and put it in the case and put it
against the wall and I went in the control room where I belonged and watched
the session. And Tom Wilson came in and he hadn't seen me sitting out there
with the guitar, so that was very good.

And then during the session they had someone playing the organ and they moved
him over to piano, actually. His name was Paul Griffin. He was a studio
keyboard player. And I walked over to Tom Wilson and I said, `Hey, why don't
you let me play organ on this. I've got a great part for this.' And he went,
`Oh, man, you're not an organ player. You're a guitar player. You don't play
the organ.' And I said, `Oh, yeah, yeah. I've got a great part for this,
Tom.' And just at that point they called him for a phone call. And I thought
to myself, `Well, you didn't say no. You just said I wasn't an organ player.'
And so I went out and sat down at the organ. And, as a matter of fact, if
Paul Griffin hadn't have left the organ switched on, that would have been the
end of my career, because it's very complicated to turn on a Hammond B3 organ.
It takes about three separate moves and you have to know what you're doing.
And I didn't, but it was on already, so I was saved.

And then Tom Wilson came back out and he said, `OK. This is take six.' And
then he saw me and he said, `Hey, what are you doing out there?' And I just
started laughing. And he was a gentleman. He just said, `OK, OK. Let's go.
We're rolling. This is take seven.' I guess he thought, you know, if I
wanted to do this so bad, he would stand behind it because he was my friend.

GROSS: When you had told Tom Wilson that you had a part worked out in your
head, did you really?

Mr. KOOPER: No, of course not; 90 percent ambition.

GROSS: OK. So then what happened? They started performing a song.

Mr. KOOPER: Well, they were rehearsing for a second and I kind of got to
thinking. And the speaker to the organ was very far from where I was sitting
at the organ and it was covered by baffling so that it wouldn't leak into
other microphones that were on in the studio. And so I couldn't actually hear
what I was playing, but if I put the headphones on I could kind of hear a
little bit of it, but hear the other things that were much louder, like the
guitar. And I didn't have any music to read. I had to do it by ear, which I
was used to doing because of playing on sessions as a guitar player. And I
just kind of, you know, muddled my way through it. And it was the only
complete take of the day, so they went in to play it back and listen to it.
And during the playback Dylan went over to Tom Wilson and said, `Hey, turn the
organ up.' And he said, `Oh, man, that guy's not an organ player.' He says,
`I don't care. Turn the organ up.' And that's how I became an organ player.

GROSS: Well, let's hear "Like a Rolling Stone" with my guest, Al Kooper,
featured on organ.

(Soundbite from "Like a Rolling Stone")

Mr. BOB DYLAN: (Singing) Once upon a time I dressed so fine. You threw the
bums a dime in your prime, didn't you? People'd call, say, `Beware, doll,
you're bound to fall.' You thought they were all kiddin' you. You used to
laugh about everybody that was hangin' out. Now you don't talk so loud. Now
you don't seem so proud about having to be scrounging for your next meal.

How does it feel? How does it feel to be without a home, like a complete
unknown, like a rolling stone?

GROSS: That's my guest, Al Kooper, featured on organ.

Al Kooper, were you surprised at the impact that organ line had on pop music?

Mr. KOOPER: Well, I mean, it was ironically hilarious, because here's a guy
that really didn't know what he was doing playing hunt-and-peck organ and,
like, a whole style of organ playing came out of that. It founded, like, a
whole style of organ playing, which, as we sit here, was really based on
ignorance, but that's what's so great about rock. That's what makes rock 'n'
roll so great is something like that could happen.

GROSS: Now in your memoir you write that you used to take records that
were--people--like bands copying what they heard on Dylan records and play
them for Dylan and that that would be really amusing. So I brought in one for
you to hear. I don't know if you know this one or not, but this is one that I
think is really so inspired by "Like a Rolling Stone" and has, I don't know,
an organ--kind of a cheesy organ or electric piano--I'm not sure which it
is--that seems to be inspired by your part. So let me play it for you and see
what you think.

(Soundbite from "Public Execution")

MOUSE & THE TRAPS: (Singing like Bob Dylan) Some words are best not spoken.
Some things are best not said, but since this is your perfect execution, I
think I'm gonna go right on ahead. The mailman brought your letter, babe,
where you told me how you feel and about the things you said he told and how
it is I'm such a heel; how I could never be honest and to you I'd always lied.
You saw me take some other ...(unintelligible) only right.

You at least might have asked me if the scene was really what it seemed, but
like a queen ruled by her jester, your conclusion was esteemed.

You said I disappointed you with all the things I'd done...

GROSS: OK, that was a song...

Mr. KOOPER: Don't tell me what it was 'cause I'm gonna tell you what it was.

GROSS: Oh, good. OK. Go ahead.

Mr. KOOPER: That was Mouse & The Traps with "Public Execution."

GROSS: Correct and it's one of the records on that great anthology "Nuggets."
A little "Wooly Bully" action in there, too, I think.

Mr. KOOPER: Well, yeah, it is, by the way, a very cheesy organ--probably a
farfeesa(ph).

GROSS: Mm-hmm.

Mr. KOOPER: And, yeah, that was one of the records that we laughed at back
then.

GROSS: So you played that for Dylan when it came out?

Mr. KOOPER: Well, we both used to listen to them. It wasn't--you know,
we--like, I'd go to the record store and then we'd go back to his house. And
then we'd put all these records on and just sit there and laugh.

GROSS: Now this--the record that you first made with Dylan got you started in
a longer relationship with him, you know, playing with him. And you played
with him at the Newport Festival, his first, you know, like, electric concert.
And it's a concert that's famous because Dylan got booed. And in your memoir
you kind of have a different interpretation of why he was getting booed. The
standard interpretation is because he had electric instruments. The audience
was really angry and thought that he'd sold out, etc., and they were booing
him. What's your explanation?

Mr. KOOPER: Well, many people came to that festival, which was a three-day
festival--like Friday, Saturday and Sunday--to see Dylan because he was like
the king of folk music at the time and he was the headliner of the festival
and was playing the final set on Sunday night. And so primarily a college-age
crowd came and they sat through many musics over the three-day period under
the umbrella of folk music that I'm sure they didn't care for. And most
people played 45-minute to an hour sets. And then we came out and we played
for 15 minutes, three electric songs. And I think that the people were
horrified and incensed that we only played for 15 minutes.

GROSS: But weren't they booing during the performance, too, though?

Mr. KOOPER: No.

GROSS: No?

Mr. KOOPER: You find me some oral record of that and I'll be very surprised.
There was an undercurrent of the festival directors that were very upset with
Dylan playing electric. That is a fact and that is true, but that really had
no way of making itself known to the audience that was attending the thing,
other than through the press.

Later on, after the festival was over, which is how that myth came to be
promulgated--after the festival, that's what the press wrote about because
they were privy to the fact that Pete Seeger and Alan Lomax were very upset
with the electrification that Dylan was doing. And, in fact, there were other
acts that played electric at that festival that nobody got bent out of shape
about, like The Chambers Brothers and the Paul Butterfield Blues Band. And
they didn't get booed because they played electric.

GROSS: My guest is Al Kooper. He has a new double CD called "Rare & Well
Done: The Greatest & Most Obscure Recordings 1964-2001." We'll talk more
after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

GROSS: Let's get back to our interview with Al Kooper. He has a new double
CD retrospective called "Rare & Well Done." In the mid-'60s he played with
the band The Blues Project. After leaving that band he co-founded Blood,
Sweat & Tears. I asked him about the sound he wanted.

(Soundbite from 1998 FRESH AIR interview)

Mr. KOOPER: Well, I had written a group of songs that, to me, sounded like
they would sound best with horns in them. And I brought that idea to The
Blues Project and they said that they didn't want to add horns, so, basically,
I left the band and went to put together a band that would have horns and that
I could perform these songs with.

GROSS: Why did you want the horns so much?

Mr. KOOPER: It--the songs just kind of dictated that they have horns. I
don't know what it was. It was, you know, sort of magic in a way.

GROSS: Is there a song you want to play that captures the way you wanted to
use horns?

Mr. KOOPER: I would say probably "I Can't Quit" or "I Love You More Than
You'll Ever Know"; either one of those.

GROSS: OK.

Mr. KOOPER: Or "My Days Are Numbered."

GROSS: Why don't we hear "I Love You More Than You'll Ever Know," and we'll
hear--we'll start this a little deep into it where the horns start to become
prominent. This is Blood, Sweat & Tears. My guest is Al Kooper.

(Soundbite from "I Love You More Than You'll Ever Know")

BLOOD, SWEAT & TEARS: (Singing) When I wasn't making too much money, you know
where my paycheck went. You know I brought it home to baby and I never spent
one red cent. Is that any way for a man to carry on? You think he wants his
little loved one gone?

I love you, baby, more than you'll ever know, more than you'll ever know. I'm
not trying to be any kind of man. I'm trying to be somebody you can love,
trust and understand. I know that I could be, yeah, what you and no one else
can see. I've just got to hear you say it's all right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm only flesh and blood. I could be everything that you demand. I could be
president of General Motors, baby, huh, or just a tiny, little grain of sand.
Is that any way for a man to carry on? You think he wants his little loved
one gone?

I love you, baby. I love you more than you'll ever know.

GROSS: Al Kooper, had you worked with horns like this before?

Mr. KOOPER: Just in--there was a period in my life where I wrote ghost
arrangements and I wrote for horns in that situation, but I had not really
been in a band with a horn section, no. I had admired Maynard Ferguson's jazz
group, which was--had a large horn section. And that was sort of my model for
Blood, Sweat & Tears.

GROSS: I know you write in your book that aging in pop is always held against
you. You know, that if you're old you're seen as not being cutting edge
anymore and, you know, therefore, washed up.

Mr. KOOPER: Yeah, I think that's a pretty accurate portrayal of the music
business...

GROSS: Mm-hmm.

Mr. KOOPER: ...except maybe, you know, in the blues area, where they
respect...

GROSS: Right.

Mr. KOOPER: ...where they respect seniority.

GROSS: That is true. That is really true. Yeah. It's true in some rock
'n' roll; like, you know, the Rolling Stones can get as old as whatever.

Mr. KOOPER: Oh, yeah. No, there are exceptions to the rule and there are
people that are really fortunate enough to keep going, but there are many that
don't.

And the other thing is that, you know, take a person like Bob Dylan or Sly &
The Family Stone. These are people that made incredible music, and yet the
society is geared up and insists that they must continue doing that for the
rest of their lives or they're horrible people or they're washed up. They're
through. But, I mean, if you look at the body of work that Sly & The Family
Stone left us, it doesn't matter if he writes another song again. He changed
music forever and was an incredibly strong influence on the way music is
being played today in the R&B field. Everyone owes a debt to him and yet,
you know, people go, `Ah, he's through or he's a drug hazard.' He is none of
those things. He is a strong influence in the history of music.

GROSS: Al Kooper, I really appreciate your talking with us and I want to
thank you very much.

Mr. KOOPER: It was my pleasure.

GROSS: Al Kooper, recorded in 1998. He has a new double CD called "Rare &
Well Done: The Greatest & Most Obscure Recordings 1964-2001."

(Production credits)

GROSS: I'm Terry Gross.

(Soundbite from Al Kooper song)

Mr. KOOPER: (Singing) Love is a beautiful thing when it knows how to swing
and it grooves like a clock, but the hands on the clock tell that love is the
call and it's breaking my heart to spend another day without her.
Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.